Crystal
Abolition is for Everybody is a podcast that tackles the sometimes difficult conversations around prison abolition. I’m Crystal.
Ra
I’m Ra.
Adam
And I’m Adam.
Ra
In this season of Abolition is for Everybody we talk about harm.
Adam
What creates it, what recycles it and how we could find our way to meaningful means of repair.
Ra
Just a reminder friends, in this episode, and every episode, we dive into very sensitive issues. This season is frameworked around violence and though the title of this episode may give you some warning, remember that harm itself tends to create situations of alternate harms. There will probably be other painful topics brought up too. Take care of you.
This episode is called Abolition Addresses Domestic Violence and Family Harm. And today, we’re joined by one of my favorite people- Susan. Susan, can you tell us a little bit about your story? And kind of related to why you’re here for this episode joining us today?
Susan
Okay, well, you know, I am currently 66 years old. My name is Susan Bustamante, and this is my story. At the age of 12 years old, I started getting molested by my own father, and which was pretty traumatic, because it was not just once or twice, it was ongoing. And I was told that if I said anything, that I would break up the family and in the 60s, you know, in Hispanic culture, you know, you honor the family. And so I- that’s what taught me how to be a victim. It taught me how to just keep my pain in silence. It taught me how to look at myself as less than, so you know, being molested as a child really changes your whole dynamic because I was outgoing. I was fun loving, and that changed me. So for the next six years till I was right before I was 18, I finally broke and told my brother because I was getting ready to turn 18 in may , in June, so my brother lived, he was always my hero. He always took care of everything if I needed something. He lived two blocks away from me. And so I went to him and I said, this is what I’ve been going through. And he just like, why didn’t you ever tell me? And he said, you know what, stay here, I’ll take care of this. Just stay here. You know, I stayed with his wife. So he went to the parents house, which again, two blocks away and about an hour and a half later, he came, he came back and, you know, I looked at him and there was like, no bruises, no, no fight marks. By then he said, go home. He’ll never touch you again. You know, I said, what happened? He said, don’t worry about it. Go home. I’m like okay, you know, I always did what I was told. So I went home, and my father looked pissy, but I looked at him again for bruises looked around the house for anything that, you know, out of sorts. Nothing. All he said is when you turn after you graduate, move out. I’m like, okay, doesn’t hurt my feelings, but and he never touched me again. So I had one year 18 and 19 in my own apartment with friends, you know, just living life. But then I met through a friend, I met Steven, my husband, and my friend’s boyfriend owned the bar so we were able to sit in the bar when I was only 19 years old. And so Steven was the knight in shining armor. He was handsome. He was five years older than me, treated me really, really good. Needless to say, I got sucked in that quick. And that was in I believe, September of 19- woosh woosh I’m dating myself. 75 oh, no. 74 in 70, December of 74. Right around Christmas, a friend of his was by then I had already moved in with him and a friend of his had a Christmas party. So he’s like, hey, you want to go? I’m like, sure. I like your friends. And so in the backyard, the garage had a pool table. And so guests were around the pool table watching and I was watching the game and some guy came up to me and asked me what time it was. I looked at my watch and told him and went back to watching the game. Next thing I knew my arm was grabbed, I was being dragged out into the house, thrown in the bathroom, thrown around the bathroom, or banging on the door. You know, he didn’t cause me to bleed, but he scared the crap out of me. And I didn’t understand what that was because nobody ever put hands on me. My father molested me, but I’ve never I think I had one spanking in my life. You know, I didn’t know what violence was even sisters and brothers we never fought. And so they got they finally got him to open the door. They, you know, push, put me in one room and took him, you know, separated us. And now, a few minutes later, I’m so sorry. I was just, you know, and I didn’t know what domestic violence was. I didn’t know what the honeymoon stage was. I don’t I didn’t know any of that. But he was sorry.
Crystal
Right.
Susan
We kept saying I’m sorry. So I’m like, oh, okay. Won’t happen again. But we got married that February and he was so controlling. You know, my self esteem was already in the toilet. He was just he had this look in his eyes. What I didn’t understand is and I don’t think he even knew it. Vietnam War.
Crystal
Oh.
Susan
He was a vet from 69 to 71. So not only was he raised in domestic violence, he had PTSD from the war. And so he would just like, shut out, his eyes would just go glaze blank. And he was coming at me. You know, the only way I can describe getting ready for that hit is like an almost car accident. You know, it’s going to come, you know it’s going to hurt, but you don’t know how bad it’s going to hurt. You don’t know if you’re going to get through it. You don’t know if enough it’s going to hit? You know. So you just pray for the best and just in that quick second in that quick, quick moment that goes through your head. How bad is it going to be? You know, and he used the his back of the hand all the time. On my head it’s like a golf ball, you know, it has all these little nodules. He never broke a bone. I could never call the police because what would you know, that time they asked him what’s up, you know, and that would have been pissed him off more. This went on for another six, seven years, six years. So basically, for 13 years of my 24 years, I was abused in some way or the other. So when I was 24, I was pregnant for the third time. My my older daughter, she was born basically a year after. She was my 21st birthday present. And so for her first birthday, she got her shots, you know, her normal one year shots. Well, she went into a fever. And so for the next three years, she had seizures, just a drop of a hat. And so not only was I dealing with his abuse, I was dealing with her seizures. My younger daughter was born in September of 79 and so every time her father was around, she cried. You know, so I had a crying baby, I had a seizure baby and I had abuse. I found out in February of 1980 that I was pregnant, and Jeanette was only like eight months old. And so I said, you know, I told Stephen I’m pregnant. And he immediately said, no, you gotta abort. You know, we already have the two we just bought the house, you can’t have the baby, and back then my babies were my everything. And so and I didn’t believe in abortion, you know, to each his own choice, but for me, no. And especially in 1970, no 1980. So then two days later or three days later, you know, he’d say, you know, I’ve been thinking about it I think we could do it. I’ve been thinking about the budget and oh, we can we can do it because you know, stay at home mom. I’m like oh my oh, okay, my baby’s saved. Then something would just, you know, just get him mad and nope, you got to get rid of it. So he did that to me for two weeks. So crying baby, seizures, and him. Again, and the thought of an abortion. So, on the day that the abortion was set up, my body started miscarrying. And so we took my kids to my mom, we went to the hospital, and the doctor says, I can give you a shot to stop the abortion and I’m like, oh, no, no, no, no, you know, because what would tell- what would, how would he react you know? But when I went for a psych eval for board, she said, whose decision was that? Because I hated him with every fiber in my being. But I realized that moment, you know, and that was I was in already 30 years that was my choice. But I got I was mad at him for making me make that choice. You know, through the marriage, I lived with him, yanking me around by my hair, showing me dirt in a corner threatening. If I left him I would he would kill my mother and my sister. You know, he isolated me. I couldn’t see my parents for four years because I told him before we got married about the molestation and so he used that against me to not go near my parents. And my mother came one time to the house and I had to meet her on the porch, because she didn’t call and how do you explain to somebody that’s your mom and your sister that they can’t come in and see the baby because Michelle is newborn. And I’m my own- that that always stuck with me. So in March of, I had the abortion in March of 80, and my brother, the same brother was a nomad type of life. And so he was at my other brothers, which was like a mile and a half from me. And so I pulled them aside, and I told him what I had been living with. He’s like, again, why didn’t you tell me? You know, and he says, don’t worry, I’ll take care of it. I’m like, okay, you know, beat him up, convinced him the, you know, let me go on and let my family live. And I was allowed on our house twice a year, Christmas and my birthday by myself. But they called it doctor visits because I lived in West Covina, and had to make it to Inglewood. Visit friends and family, and then come home in time for him to you know, get home from work before he left for work. And so I left that morning, but I had my brother said, unlock the backdoor. That’s my culpability. I unlocked that backdoor. I did not plan the murder. I did not pay for the murder. I did not, we didn’t talk about murder. I mean, that was my fantasy that I wouldn’t have to be scared in in pain anymore. So I unlocked the back door and I left with my daughtes. I talked to my brother about that was at five o’clock, five thirty in the morning, five o’clock, something like that. I’m talking to my brother about nine thirty he says, you need to leave the kids home. You need to come home, tell mom that you’re gonna get you that it’s okay for you to spend the weekend and Stephens dead. And I’m like, oh my god, you know. So I get home. I’m like, what happened? And all he said was happy birthday sis. It was the day before my birthday. And the day before Mount St. Helens erupted. That always sticks in my head to you know, funny little things. So then I had he told me every single thing I had to say, how to act, what to do, because of the fact that he used my kids as a leverage that I would go to prison, they would be taken away from me, that he would take them, he would kidnap them. You name it, he used it against me. He wanted the insurance money. So I had to get the insurance money and I gave him I think a little more than half. And he kept piecing it through those two year and finally I said I don’t have it no more. And so during that timeframe, he had told the neighbor who’s a dope fiend, also, he was bad into heroin. And he helped come and get rid of evidence at the house with him so he knew a little bit about the crime. So in January of 86, and it was this neighbor, and he said, I need some money to get out of town or else we’re both gonna go down. I’m like, I am not doing that no more. Shoot your best shot. I’m not doing it. I’m not going to be paying you for the rest of my life. No. And so needless to say, he was an informant with the police. He was known for doing this train over cases, so he wouldn’t do his own year violation. So when I went to my arraignment, the judge, he’s looking at me and and I, you know, because I was honest, when I went to get interrogated, I was honest. So I always tell my girls don’t say don’t ever say anything without a lawyer there, because I told what happened, but they twist it in, you know, made it made it their way. And so when I was with in front of the judge, my mom was in the courtroom and he looked at her and he said, if I put your daughter $5,000 bail, can she get out? So for $5,000 I was walking around the streets for a year and a half with a 187 with special circumstance charge. That is million dollar to no bail charge. And I was out on a $5,000 bail. Well, I was also bonded with with security bank. So I bought I’m bailed out. So when it was time for trial, I didn’t see my attorney anytime during that time. So when I saw my finally when it was right before trial, he handed, my attorney handed me this piece of paper, and I said, what is this? You know, it’s says life without right here. He goes, yeah, that’s just a formality to get the trial started. He said, just sign it. They have to prove you’re guilty. You know, they have no evidence, just sign it well, closed courtroom. Two day trial. Three days for picking the jury, two day trial, three day deliberation. I had life without at 32 years old, because my brother had died of a brain aneurysm and so he never stood trial for. So for 32 years, 31 years, I was incarcerated with a death sentence of life without. That’s my story.
Ra
Thank you for sharing that. And just, we always end episodes with a little bit of hope, but since that story was a lot, I just want to emphasize that you are home now. We are so grateful to have you home now. When- what year was that?
Susan
I got commuted in December of 2017 by Governor Brown. When they called five of us up to up to the ATM and put us one by one. We went into a conference room on the phone with somebody from Sacramento and she said that, you know, she went through this long thing, but I have dissociation so all I heard is commuted. You know and when it was time to go, I went in the warden’s office and so she she said you can make a phone call called one, one phone call, but they can’t post it on social media. And I’m like, oh okay. I didn’t know what that was.
Crystal
Right.
Susan
So then I looked at the phone, and I looked at her and looked at the phone, she goes, what’s the number, and I called my daughter that I live with every week. So I air dialed dialed her number. And as I was dialing it, she was dialing it for me and my daughter answered and I told her that I got commuted that I have a chance to come home. And she said, really mom? Because what I wasn’t understanding is, as I was going through, trying to do a writ or trying to do an appeal or trying to get a lawyer- so were they. So were they going through that roller coaster, so that I got to hear the child in her voice because my daughters were eight and 11 when I came to prison. when I walked down in September 12 of 2018, there were 39 and 42 so we missed a whole lot.
Adam
Wow, thank you for sharing that. And I know that you have to you know, you have to go back into the times and relive and it’s so emotional right now and I feel I feel pain and you know, everything that you have went through. And once again, thank you for being here, and sharing sharing with us your story, and how you know, we are addressing domestic and horror. And once again, thank you for sharing, you know, what, what led up and you know, the intel of what led to you going through a prison sentence. And I’m sure seeing so many different things and so many different cases similar, and situations similar to what you have experienced to now being home and doing the work that you are doing.
Susan
We were the first prison in the nation to do a battered women’s group. And so I had to be convinced by my friend that I was a battered woman because I didn’t understand what that that was. So but meeting people who are there behind their partners, being told what to do, being forced to go to the crime, being forced to sell their bodies, trafficked, you know, you just you name it, they they went through it, and a lot of them are still there. That’s what makes it hard. I think I have survivor’s guilt you know, because I made it out. They’re still there. So in the work I do you know, it’s helping- they know I’m fighting out here for them as part of this. I’m part of Homefree where I’m going to take a lifer and drive her at a drop of a hat. They say go she’s coming out. I will be there and drive her to San Francisco, I’m in Azusa, so it’s a little bit but you know what? Not too far. You know, it’s not too far, you know, if they would have had, where teachers can recognize a child imploding within themselves and, and give us counselors and talked about and not being shamed by it. Or if, you know, like my mom I did tell her once he’s been you know, she says, why don’t you come over? I said, he won’t let me. Well, you know, you this is your choice, you make your bed, you lie in it, but there’s nothing on domestic violence. There is no commercials, there’s no, what is it?pb- p, those
Ra
PSAs.
Adam
Yeah.
Ra
Public service announcements.
Adam
Right, right.
Susan
Nothing, and there still isn’t, when is the last time you saw a PSA on domestic violence? And showing the hotline or hearing the kids are actually finally now getting counseling? Having recreation after school? Having something
Adam
Right.
Susan
instead of the streets and the gangs?
Crystal
I still haven’t seen anything like that now and so much of your story resonated with me, Susan, specifically, when you say that you said, that was my fantasy that I wouldn’t be scared or in pain anymore. That’s all there was. Because I I personally have a loved one who has experienced rape and domestic violence, you know, and in her life, so I was on the side where her partner wouldn’t let her come home. We would go months without hearing about her, seeing her. Then the next time we did see her, she would have bruises. This particular person had no problem breaking bones, and, you know, making the the physical acts pretty apparent. Didn’t try and hide it. And she once told me a story where I realized just how serious this was, just how terrifying this was, of her driving down the street and running into him, and him chasing her around. And she said that just to get away from him, she was running stop signs, she was running red lights and in that moment, I remember thinking either my loved one is going to die because something like this is gonna happen. In that moment, you know, trying to get away, she could have taken somebody’s life by accident, or she’s going to end up in prison, because the situation’s were just escalating so much. And I know that women in prison are three to four times more likely than men who are in prison to experience abuse, whether it’s as a child and as an adult, and that is also the case with my loved one. So as you’re telling your story, my heart is pounding and I’m sweating, and I’m thinking about my loved one who, who now still hasn’t found a solution. Hasn’t found a, hasn’t found a safe space, you know, there are children involved. So I just want to highlight that this happened in the 80s, it’s 2022 and we haven’t found anything that can help our loved ones that are going through that.
Susan
It’s hard, but you know, I did the domestic violence 40 hour training and what I learned is you can’t just snatch somebody out of relationship, because they’re going to always justify why they have to stay or why they have to go back and you know, it’s a big red truck right there in front of you and you can’t help them. But what you can do is you can convince your loved one to get her birth certificate, get her children’s birth certificates, put them away in it and you know put it give, them to you, have ’em mailed to you. In a duffel bag put put the birth certificate, put important papers in there, gather cash, gather change of clothes for her, for the children, and at some point in time she could be finally be done. And knowing that those papers are out there that you’ve got the important stuff that that that would be a big relief. You know, because it’s grab and go. You know just tell me I you know look look what look what we have right here. This is all you need, you know, get an extra car key, whatever it takes. Little things. You know, to give her comfort of knowing that if she made that call you’d be there in a heartbeat, you know, but she needs to start documenting. Take a picture and then delete it off her phone. You know, but send it to you. Take pictures, document.
Crystal
Right. As I’m hearing you talk, I’m reminded that solutions that need to be created and solutions that we are created are based on the family, are based on the community, because and we do that we do support my loved one as much as possible, we do support the children as much as possible, whenever the person who is causing the harm comes to my family, we try and support them as well, because they’re a family member, they’re close. But at the same time, it makes me angry, it makes me angry that in the 80s, this happened to you, and in 2022 it’s happening to my loved one. And you talk about all of the women who are inside who most likely went through this. I also read that, you know, as many as 90% of women in prison, who are there for killing men, have been previously battered by those men. So that has that has been a thought of mine, too, right? Like, what if it escalated?
Susan
And a man will have a crime of passion sentence, and a woman would have life without because she premeditated even though if she picks them something up, or she pushes him wrong and he dies, she will get a minimum of 25 to life. Then where will her children be?
Crystal
Right.
Susan
I had a death sentence. You can tell her you talked to me. I had the death sentence. And no, I wasn’t up in Pelican Bay or wherever they San Quentin, Folsom, whatever they were, they had death, the death row. Wasn’t there. But I was a living death sentence every single day.
Adam
Yeah, and I like that you pointed something out, right? You pointed out the difference in how this system, right? That people believe in that, okay, this system work. But like you said, you know, you’ve been in an unfortunate situation, and try to try to get the help or trying to, you know, get out of that get out of a situation. And, you know, things happen, and lead up to you know, them hearing your story, right, and then flip it in on you. And then you know, receiving all this time, right? A whole lot of time. That’s like what? right? But then you have, you know, males that actually have done and have you know, battered women and go and get these sentences and go home, right? And then in a couple years be back doing the same exact thing with the person that they went, you know, caused the harm to. And I think that’s that’s, like, that’s so unfortunate that we are living in times where this is still happening, like Crystal spoke about, you know, something that took place, you know, started in the 60s in the 70s. And, you know, the 80s. And here it is, 2022 we are still we are still talking and having these conversation of, you know, what needs to be done, you know, what can we all do to truly prevent this from happening, not just from our loved ones, right, but everybody you know? And it really hits me because recently, I went to I went to one of my loved ones funeral where it was the same situation, unfortunately, that, you know, my loved one wasn’t able to live because it escalated to that point, you know, it escalated to where, you know, seeking options or getting help was kind of like, you know, looking in the dark, and you don’t have a flashlight, but you’re still looking at it and you just hoping and then it comes to that point where you’re no longer able to look anymore because that situation has escalated. Right? Because you haven’t got the help. Something else that you said that really struck was, you know, how come we don’t have no billboards more around that speaking about domestic violence, right? But we will be so quick to have, you know, PSAs and announcements about how everybody needs to go to prison and this needs to be done to people that has, you know, these kinds of crimes but domestic violence kind of just get looked over because let’s let’s call it what it is right? It’s still new things of the mindset of living like well, men can just do and and do what they want like it’s nothing gonna happen and I truly believe that that needs to be changed that needs to be that needs to be switched around. It is not okay for me just because I’m born a male right to say that I have any type of form of authority and say so over a woman that either become a significant other to me, a girlfriend, a domestic partner, or even a wife, right? Even when we’ve been married I make sure that I’m always saying hey, she’s just not my wife. We are we are a union we are one you know, yes. She’s not Mrs. Adam Cain. No, she’s Mrs. Ashley Simone Atkins Cain. I’m very you know, very stern about that because it just riles me up because I have witnessed this so much and it’s just like you know, it on the men part it has it has a lot has to be done as well right. We need to have these conversations we need to talk about you know, and hear hear these stories of emotion that hit home because you know, that can be the story that change somebody that is causing the harm from not doing it anymore.
Susan
But the other thing on that is now though, today that PSA would have a husband wife, will have two men, two women, the domestic you know, because domestic violence does not care what what sex you are, if they’re going to be abusers, they’re going to take it out on their loved ones, whoever they are, you know? And when you start getting abused your mental state, your self worth your your, you just start thinking less and less than you think that that’s all you deserve. So how do you get out?
Crystal
Right.
Susan
When you think that’s all you deserve?
Crystal
Yeah, so much of this has to do with, as you’ve all said, the conversation, you know, removing shame from this context. And I think Susan gave some really practical examples of how individual care can or like, pod care as we sa in the disability community, things that people in your immediate circle can do and prepare for and understand. And of course, we we want to highlight too that, like structural change needs to happen and cultural change needs to happen because it shouldn’t all fall on Susan and Susan’s family and friends to you know, like there needs to be structures in place, we need to have these hotlines I think you mentioned you know, resources
Adam
Right.
Ra
education. And I think it
Susan
needs to be in school.
Ra
Yeah, recognize it in children.
Susan
Start at junior high school, because that’s where, you know, I hate to say it but even in elementary school, they start to have a boyfriend girlfriend thing. But in Junior High in their sex education, there should be an understanding, don’t let him tell you what you can or can’t wear, don’t let them
Crystal
Right.
Susan
take your phone. Don’t not be able to go out with your friends, because he’s at a basketball practice and you’re home and have nothing to do you know, all that stuff, because that’s where it starts. That’s, you know, you’re just trying to find your self esteem and your and your who you are. And then yet, you know, don’t don’t listen to me say, you know, you can’t wear that. Well, why? Why is what I’m wearing harming you? You know? And if it does, you gotta go. But you know,
Adam
Right, right bye huh?
Susan
You know just say that. Yes, that’s where it should start. That’s, that’s the education that’s needed. You know, and to teach these kids gangs aren’t the that’s not the answer. That’s not where you’re gonna find love. That’s not where you’re gonna find acceptance, you got to find yourself. And again, counselors and education and classes for this in school.
Adam
You said something that like that just just rang a bell. And like, on me, my mind instantly went back to high school. And I remember like, them talking so much, right, so much about having protection, right? I’m gonna keep it safe, because you want to make sure I’m in compliance, right having protection, but it was no conversations of, you know, witnessing domestic violence, it was no conversation, like, we got sex ed, but we can’t have anything that’s related to, you know, real life problems. I mean, like, in house problems, right, identity crisis, or whatever it may be, right, like somebody’s trying to find themselves and may be influenced to do this, but not actually having the right tools to be genuinely themselves, you know, and then conversations for me, I feel like, definitely needs needs do need to have more conversations just besides, you know, your this is what you use to prevent you from having kids, but actually knowing, like, you know, these children is is growing up and try to find themselves in what’s happening is in these in households that we come from, right? We actually start to lose ourselves, just like you spoke about Susan, it’d be it, it becomes second nature to be like, okay, well, this is what I’m worth, this is what I, you know, this is what this is who I am because it starts off at a young age, psychologically, as well as physically right? And then it just continues to progress. And, you know, and I can say that wholeheartedly, proudly that I know that for sure it happened with me. And I’m not saying that, you know, growing up I had, like, I didn’t know who I was. No, I was influenced from other people that helped change and alter my identity because of things that was taking place in my household, such as physical abuse, such as, you know, verbal abuse and different domestic violence with family members. You know?
Ra
I just want to make sure we also just highlight in Susan’s story how, despite all these things happening, their one size fits all solution was to lock you away for so long, and I don’t think we stopped to explain what an LWOP sentence is and the depth of ridiculousness when it comes to that and recidivism and stuff. Susan, you are the expert. Did you know wanna fill us in?
Susan
Yes, the life without- picture um, you know, when you go in a room, the first thing you do is look where the exit sign is. So picture going in a room, the door locking with no exit. That’s what life without is. There is no exit to that sentence. So you’re there decades. I was there three decades, but there’s my friends have been there five decades you know and living knowing that you’re going to be you know, because through the time we lost so many lifers, so many people, so many friends to illnesses, and they are we’ve lost loved ones that we cannot go out to their funeral, we cannot have closure because of our sentence. And so you’re in there and your children are going through something. Your children are going into teenage years, your children are dating, your children are having getting married, having babies, where are you? Still in prison. Still behind that lock door. And not only was I abused by my dad, I was abused by my husband, I was abused by the system, because they pick their balls up with the keys and think that they’re judg and jury for those eight hours that they’re there. They’re going to judge you, they’re going to punish you, they’re going to it’s you- It’s my job to make sure that you understand, this isn’t Camp Snoopy, and you’re going to pay for being here for just at least today that I’m here whether it’s threatening you with a write up because you you looked at them wrong, whether it is just because you exist, you know, and they had a bad day at home. Wow. So that was 31 years of my life. And like, you know what, this COVID they’re being locked in constantly, you know, and and it’s two years of being locked in. My longest time was three weeks. I can’t imagine two years of looking at it, you know, for CIW 10 by 12 room. You know, that’s, some people’s bathrooms are bigger than that. And that’s your whole living existence. And the mental state of, you’re excited for people going home. You know, I know I was at least, but I knew I wasn’t going anywhere. And yet I still had work. I still had to go to groups. I still had to walk that fine line of never, I never got a write up. I never got a disciplinary because they said nothing is going to stop when they knock on my door. Nothing’s gonna stop me from going home that I have done myself. Life is weird, you know, but prison is horrific. You know, because people, you know, especially 19 was the is the main age 19 to 24 is the main age that people go to prison. And your brain doesn’t even function as an adult till you’re 26. So going in at 19- my friend went in at 20 years old. She is now 57 years old and has a life without sentence. No hope, no commutation, nothing. You know her names, in her commutations in, but no, still there.
Ra
And I’m sure, I feel like everyone listening knows this, but just to say it in plain speak language, prison did not in any way help you right? Become better at recognizing the signs. I mean, obviously, you know Adam and I talk a lot about how like you can’t discount the people inside you know that that’s kind of like a miracle and a grace and you definitely learn from them, but the structure is of prison itself- was there anything in there that you felt like yes, this is the right tool to use in this case?
Susan
Well, you know, because I went in broken, I knew that in order to be the best mom I could be, I needed to fix me. So my very first group was adult of child molestation. Then next group was battered women group we formed. Then I, we did domestic violence classes for three years because the the psychologist, psychiatrist was so fascinated, but I took everything in there to make myself better. And I learned from it and I didn’t have to- that piece of paper meant nothing to me, but boy it sure did when I went to board. You know, my c-file was so thick. And then I did the Native American sweat lodge. That’s where I was able to totally forgive, be forgiven, live life, you know, as a gift. Even in there everyday was a blessing above ground and walk softly walk softly on this earth and live with no regret.
Susan
People that know, people that have, don’t be stingy, don’t keep it to yourself. You know what, what I think really helped me is I learned how to be a mentor. You know, I learned how to just sit and listen, without telling people how to live their lives. You know, when they’d ask questions, especially like, with when I was with Ra, you know, just let her talk, let them talk. Because when people talk, they hear themselves, you know, or they ask, you know, they would ask me a question, and I would turn around and ask the same question and say, well, what do you do think about that? You know, because it’s their life. It wasn’t mine. So I’ve learned that, you know, and, and like, Adam, if you’re angry with me, that has nothing to do with me. So I don’t take anything personal that people’s opinion is because it’s their opinion, if it’s not, if it’s something I’m doing, then I gotta change me. But if I’m not doing anything, and somebody’s having a bad day, that’s not my business. That’s what I’ve learned. But, you know, getting involved with the coalitions, getting involved with your assembly people, and saying, hey, we need more PSAs on this stuff, or, you know, if you know, anybody in media, you know, tell them hey, what do you guys think of trying to get somebody to rally on some PSAs out there, because, you know, yeah, they don’t show as much alcohol anymore, but they still show too many chips and sodas in commercials.
Ra
I’m glad Susan brought that up as the thing we missed, because I did want to emphasize to listeners who have told us that, you know, my contributions to this podcast were valuable to them in some way. And I just want to like make super clear, I had no intention of talking about any of these things until I met Susan inside. We were together just a few weeks before my husband passed away and we continued to work together during some of the worst moments of my life, and there is a lot of shame of being inside and not having your person out there when you’re coming home and I was dealing with a lot of those shame based thoughts, and sometimes just having someone around you to like, hold that line to be lovingly sneaky in the way she just explained. I think that’s very helpful. And it guides you into a good place where you can one day, you know no one, you don’t owe anyone your advocacy, but one day, you’ll want to, you know, you want to give this back.
Adam
You know, I want to ask, you know, what else did we miss? Or what is something that we discussed today that you may want to add on? To reflect on? Or just kind of just share, you know, as we as we get ready to, to, you know, bring this episode into, into a conclusion.
Crystal
Ra, can you confirm with us whether or not Susan was that friend from Season One that find you found you behind the fire truck?
Ra
Yes, she was. She found me behind the fire truck crying because someone said something mean to me and she was so mad. She was so fired up. I was like, this woman is terrifying and I want to be just like her. I want to be just as mad when somebody who doesn’t have the tools or the place to have the words or know what to say I want to be like the person who just pops up behind them out of nowhere and says, hi, I’m here. I’m angry for you and I will lead until you’re ready to lead. So yes, that was definitely Susan. So you can sneak peek part of our story if you go back to Season One.
Crystal
Thank you for confirming because I’ve been wondering, I remember that story very clearly and you talk about how Susan’s one of your favorite people and she talks about how she was there for a lot of women. I know this episode was particularly difficult. Susan, your story was very heartfelt and you gave us a lot of different pieces. You all said a lot of different pieces of what we can do better collectively, but I also know that a lot of our listeners know someone who is going through this or is going through this themselves, so to end us with a little bit of more hope because listening to your story that was hope for me for my loved one and for all of you know the women that are still inside, but what is one thing, tiny, actionable real thing that we can all do and that our listeners can do to do better in the future?
Susan
The thing that comes to my mind, what you could do for your loved one is, let them know they’re not alone. Let them know that, that you totally understand that you’re there for them when they are ready. But you’re there. And you know, give them that little nudge if you can. But, again, it’s their walk. But just be there, knowing that you’ve done everything possible. Live with no regrets. And if you want to call a loved one, don’t don’t wait on tomorrow to do it because tomorrow’s not promised. And then when they’re not there, you say, oh, I should have. Shoulda, woulda, coulda. Don’t, don’t do that. If you feel somebody really strong, there’s a reason you feel them. Pick up your darn phone, it’s right there in front of you. You’re always on it anyway, you know, just put down the game and make the phone call.
Adam
Yes and while you’re making that phone call one tangible thing I would like to just throw out there. Right? If you have your phones right now, you may be in a situation, you can call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233. That is the National Domestic Violence Hotline. Whether you are a person that is getting harmed or causing harm, and you and you need that help and you want to make that call, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline to receive the help to at least start, if you may, or may not feel comfortable with sharing with some of your loved ones, because of you know, for personal reasons.
Susan
Absolutely. And you know, if it’s your brother or your uncle, or even a sister or an auntie that is hurting somebody else, let him know that you know what, just because this is happening, it can change, you can change, but you want to because I want you to. I will be here to help you walk you through it, but there are people, there are groups, there are classes, there are psychiatrists to help you change because especially if there’s children, you’re teaching that next generation, how to abuse or how to accept being abused.
Ra
Yeah, I echo all of that. And I wanted to also say that the hotline is as anonymous as it can be. They do a really good job of protecting your data and protecting the people around you. So be honest with them, and let them know where you feel the most protection is needed. Like if you have children, for instance, be clear there and they can connect you to local resources that might be able to help out a little bit. And for me, I think the first time I heard Susan’s story, what feels like a million years ago, although it was the only eight, I think years ago was realizing how little of this how little how few of the signs I could recognize on my own. Like after she pointed them out, I was like, oh yeah, I’ve definitely seen those signs in young women that I went to school with or young men to just people, people besides even just low self esteem, forgetting even the abuse and domestic violence, even just how low self esteem can lead to such bad situations like in those moments. Again, being the Susan I met inside the prison who pops up out of nowhere and sits down next to someone that can be really valuable. So I encourage people to do that. Be that person. Be Susan.
Ra
This isn’t the full story of the full humans involved in these experiences, or every complete community or person who has gone through experiences that parallel. We have walked this gently so as not to diminish the story, but to highlight and amplify the hearts involved.
Adam
Thank you for listening to Abolition is for Everybody. If you want to continue supporting this podcast and our work overall, you can donate to support Initiate Justice at InitiateJustice.org/Donate