[intro music begins]
Crystal abolition is for everybody is a podcast that tackles the sometimes-difficult conversations around prison abolition. I’m Crystal.
Graham And I’m Graham. This season is about the media’s involvement in carceral or abolitionist thinking-
Crystal How it uses narratives to impact, radicalize, and shift culture.
Graham Just a reminder friends, though the title of this episode may give you some warning, remember that harm itself tends to create situations of alternate harms.
Crystal There will likely be other painful topics brought up too. Take care of you.
[intro music ends]
Crystal Hi, everyone. Today we are joined by Ra, who you all know from Seasons 1 and 2. I’m really, really excited to have her today. And I know we have a lot to talk about today. So let’s just get into it. Ra, can we begin with you telling us a little bit more about what media literacy actually means?
Ra Yeah, absolutely. Hey, my name is Ra, she/her pronouns, and I’m formerly incarcerated–not relevant for media literacy, but it’ll probably come up at some other points. Media literacy is our ability to access, analyze, evaluate, and create media. So really similar to regular literacy, like when you learn how to read, understand, interpret, and make words you’re literate. So it’s a very similar dynamic. And I think what we’re talking about today, if I understand correctly, is how to apply that media literacy to, like, the world, to actively apply it because I do think most of us are pretty media literate. It’s an aspect of being storytelling creatures, like, humans.
Crystal Yep. Applying, applying media literacy, to know how we are constantly consuming that copaganda and how we are, you know, the stories and the narratives from our communities are being shifted. So I’m really excited for this episode, because I think it’ll really set us up with what we need to know to continue, like, listening to the rest of the season and just in our everyday lives. So, the nerd inside of me is so excited to have you, Ra, so it can continue to talk about this and learn from you.
Ra Yeah, I think we’re probably going to end up using a lot of words people don’t know, I think the first is, the first we’ve already dropped, is “copaganda.” Copaganda is a combination word, it’s cop and propaganda. And propaganda means any type of media that we recognize as something that’s trying to, like, make us feel a way. The fun thing about that word is that kind of everything is propaganda. Everything is created. And that’s like one of the first rules of media literacy, that everything is created, and everything is creative, which is what I meant when I said that we already practice media literacy all the time in our lives. Like if two little kids run up to you and say, “This is what happened,” you’re using literacy, media literacy, to understand their narratives, their stories, how they’re telling it to decide, which is the most true. You’re accessing that story, you’re analyzing it, you’re evaluating it, you’re even creating a third storyline, right? That anytime you make something creative an audience plays a part of it. The artist is just step one, the audience is step two. So when those two little kids are like, “and then this person did that, and then that happened,” you make a third story that makes sense based on your life experiences, what you understand to be true. And yeah, most people are pretty media literate. The issue is where we choose to apply it. As soon as it comes from a news site with the fancy logo on the corner, we kind of turn off that part of our brain or even like, you know, sometimes we go into things with biases. Oh, no, that’s another word. Let’s see, a bias is a disproportionate weight in favor or against a thing. Usually, when we say it, we mean it in a not great way, we usually mean something like that it’s unfair or closed-minded, prejudiced, or limited in some way. So like, “bunnies are fluffy” isn’t a bias. It’s not necessarily always true, but it’s not a bias. But “bunnies are fluffy so they’re the most adorable animal on earth and should definitely be a pet”– that’s a bias. And a not true one, as someone who has owned a bunny. So I think there is those types of things to factor in. But yeah, I am also excited to get into this. Copaganda is definitely something that affects us most when we’re talking about abolition, or most vividly. But there are lots of different types of things that sneak into media that do in fact change the way you are able to think about the future.
Graham That’s interesting. So I was thinking on what you said. And in reference to the biases that we have, that we established, those oftentimes come from different forms of exposure, media exposure, as we’re growing up, correct?
Ra Definitely. And community. I mean, when you start, like, maybe the first step of media literacy is realizing that almost anything we consume is media, right? The stories our parents tell us, the fairy tales we grew up with, not just news, not just TikTok, not just fictional TV shows, but all of those things combined. And that, kind of like, the story that people are telling us about the world, as opposed to the story we’re telling ourselves about the world — all of that is media. So yeah, that definitely informs your media literacy at a very, very young age.
Crystal So how can we–what are the different things that we can do to get to what story is being told? And making sure that we’re not consuming either false information or information that is meant to scare us, or put, you know, certain groups of people or certain communities in a bad light? Because when we talk about media literacy and the media and copaganda, a lot of the times it’s meant to scare us; a lot of the times it’s, it’s meant to kind of put cops in a good light and make them the heroes. So what are the different things that we can look out for? Not to completely get rid of it, because it’s everywhere, but like, to make it, to be more aware that that’s what we’re consuming? And like, what other things can we think of, to make sure that we don’t buy into those stories? I know a lot, a lot of questions in one.
Ra No, it’s okay. I think there are some, like, basic rules of how media works. Like I said already that all media is created and creative. And I think it’s really helpful to think of media as a creative platform. So even when you’re seeing something that says CNN or Fox News, like you are watching a creative re-enactment of what happened in the world. And just like anything that’s creative, there are, like, rules; there are rules, and there are creative languages. So for instance, like when I say creative rules and languages, I’m a poet, right? So there– poetry is a very flexible art form, right? Some people write in prose form, some people rhyme. But there are general shapes that poems take. And there are some historical styles that people will often mimic. And that happens in theater, plays, and very often in news, right? And it’s a lot of different things. It’s the way the camera angle swoops in, it’s what they’re taking photos of. It is little taglines, like, “if it bleeds, it leads,” meaning that violence and things are going to catch your eye first, so that should be at the forefront of what they’re selling on their TV. So yeah, you’re, we’re experiencing a play, essentially. And along with that creative energy is, like I said, the audience, right? Like, everybody experiences creativity differently. And that’s super important to know. Because one thing we think of when we’re watching the news and stuff is like, “Oh, it’s so objective”. Like, “I’m watching the same news that Crystal is watching. And that Graham is watching.” And the reality is, we’re not. We all come from our own experiences — we’re different ages, we have different media literacies that we’re bringing to it, different biases that we’re bringing to it, and it will resonate or stick with us in different ways, just like any art. And then, like, along with creative, it like that concept. It goes with like, who’s making the art, right? Who’s creating it? What are their, what’s their point of view? Which like, if you’re in an art class, that’s the first thing you learn, right? What point of view is this artist coming from? I think one of the like, the more pop culture-y stories is how like, sad Van Gogh was (I said, his name wrong, sorry, I’m very American). But he’s painting all these beautiful flowers. And he’s just recognized around the world for these vibrant, bright flowers and endless stars. And this was a man wracked with depression. So the point of view is really important when you’re looking at it objectively, or as objectively as possible, or even analyzing it, you know: what, what was he reaching for with this? So point of view and values –really important. What are they reaching for? What are they trying to tell you by doing this? Probably maybe the most important in terms of this is the economic impact. That’s what you were talking about, Crystal, is that unlike normal art forms, news agencies and things– anything that’s on our TV, which is a very expensive medium–has an economic impact, like money is involved, power is involved, inherently. We live in a capitalistic framework, and those things are deeply embedded. And don’t get me wrong. Poetry and things like that are also impacted by power and profit and whatnot. You know, and you see those in different forms, like, Instagram became popular, so poetry got shorter. And so we have to make it legible on this platform. And news does that all the time. So yeah, the economic impact is the area I think we need to look at most objectively, but all of those other things are things that need some serious focus in order to be able to view things and kind of weed it out.
Graham That’s deep. I was, I spent a lot of time looking at different ways that the media affects and impacts my thinking and has impacted my thinking. And I’ve never really looked at it in comparison to different forms of art. I have looked at it like a play, very much, but I’ve never really — the way that you describe that was very applicable to me. So I thank you for that. I, I guess the question that I have is, so if we’re looking at economic impact, when we’re looking at the way, let’s say a medium like TikTok, which is also media, monetized people who post and have a lot of followers, and Instagram does this too– influencers. So if they monetize that, how does that inform us as we’re watching that, in terms of like the stories that people are putting out on TikTok, the different– they have like prison TikTok, they have abolition TikTok, they have all these different platforms. Like, how are we using that?
Ra That is a really good question. I think it’s a fun and kind of stressful phenomenon to live through is, is realizing that a new media has entered entered the room. And so now we’re learning how to interpret that as well. But ultimately, everything comes back to those basic rules. You know, it’s one, people are, people are motivated just by creativity, creativity alone is a motivator. So wanting to be part of those plays, wanting to write those words, that that makes sense, right? That’s something that humans are called to. We want to tell stories, we want to explain stories. Where it starts getting wonky is those points of views, you know, like, objectivity and neutrality are different things. And that comes into play a lot with TikTok, I think, because people are very honestly reporting from their point of view about things that maybe they’re experiencing or seeing. But that doesn’t make it a neutral statement, especially not when you’re platforms, you know, and by platform, I mean, you have an audience of a large amount of people. And TikTok is an interesting experience, as well as like all the other social media platforms, because those platforms aren’t guided by any types of rules. And I’m not entirely sure if even the people speaking necessarily understand that they have a platform and what that’s doing. So it takes a while for people to realize that they, kind of– social media has inured us to the numbers. So we think to ourselves, “I’m only talking to 5000 people.” But if you had a radio show that reached 5000 people, you would be subject to laws and rules regulating that. And I’m not generally a big fan of like, rules and regulations and laws, they tend to be carceral if you go deep enough. They tend to be racist if you go deeper. But I do think like, there’s something to be said about just the double check. Acknowledging that, that you have this large audience and they aren’t perceiving your art the same way– you may not be understanding the fullest story. So in our case, like what we would do, what I do is — especially if I like something, especially if I find myself enjoying a form of media, or a TikTok or a news episode — I tell my brain, just for a second, to treat it like I was skeptical, like I didn’t like it. And immediately those media literacy tools kind of click in. I think the best example is that like, I love sci fi, fantasy. I’m a geek in that way. So I will suspend all levels of disbelief, right? It’s like the TV show starts and a toddler comes out and lifts an elephant over his head. And I’m like, Yep, got it. Super strong toddlers, you know, no questions asked. But I’m not a true crime person. I’m not a police show person. So the second it happens, I’m just like, she doesn’t look like a cop. How come her key only has one key? Like, I’m skeptical of every little detail. Like, why did they show us her keys? Why did they show us her cat? Now, ok, we know she’s an animal lover? Right? So I’m very skeptical of those types of things. And I think I turn that part of my brain on when I’m really enjoying something so that I can be just as skeptical. Like, “why are they showing us this?” is the question you always have to keep asking. “What are they trying to make me feel? And what does me feeling this way do for their ability to keep making this art?”
Crystal I know that for our TikTok at Initiate Justice, we spend a lot of time thinking about the language that we use, and the visuals that we use. And even time on like the song that we put in the background, because we don’t want to add to the stereotypes and images and stories and, you know, narratives that a lot of people have about currently incarcerated or formerly incarcerated people. Going back a little bit to what you were saying when you talked about the visuals, even like the visuals– they really think about what that visual wants to be. In Episode One, I talked about how, when my brother was incarcerated, there was video of him and other people being arrested. You know, and I, I can visualize what he was wearing. And I can visualize where his handcuffs, handcuffed hands are. And now I’m thinking about why they might have chosen that specific image. That’s not something I thought about at the time, and it just clicked just now, like, why they might have picked that video of my brother and other people being arrested. And it just goes back to what you were saying about wanting to, like, cause fear, because it was like a lot of brown men and a couple of brown women. And they were throwing words out there like “criminals” and some of “some of these are felons” and “we seized X amount of things” and “our communities are going to be safe for now”. So they’re creating that narrative and making those associations for us. And it definitely worked because, since then, I’ve met a lot of people who have talked about what happened and all those people that they arrested and “it’s a good thing they’re in prison now,” “da da da”. And then when I say, “Oh, my brother was one of them, and you know my family, you know my brother, you know my community, you’re from this community,” they go silent. Because they bought into what the story that they were trying to sell with those images and those headlines.
Ra Yeah. I’m sorry, that that happened, that you had to see things like that. It’s always difficult when things we’ve experienced and things we’re experiencing, are retold into, like, a creative art form, there’s like a particular cruelty to that, that I don’t think people really know until they go through it themselves. So, that sucks and I’m sorry. But I do think, you know, like, the emotional aspects that they’re trying to reach and try to get to is like, the safety elements. You know, it’s not always trying to inspire fear, but sometimes trying to, like, reiterate a good emotion to make you continue to come back to this source, you know? And the idea of safety is very compelling. And my personal opinion is that it’s as compelling as it is in this country because we don’t have a very good grip on how to create safety, right? We think of safety. And we add harm. And that’s how we address it. So like, very few of us get to, like, experience safety. And so, and I had similar experiences when I was incarcerated. My, I think we’ve, like, personally chatted about this, where the picture they used for me is — It’s a podcast. So, I’m brown. My father is from India, my mother is from Mexico — and the pictures they used of me are in like, full headcoverings, which you only, I only ever do to go to my father’s temple. So there are maybe two or three pictures of that in existence versus the 1000s of me with, you know, my hair all over the place. So the picture was chosen very deliberately, and like, based on where I am, why are you choosing this photo? What stereotype are you relying on? What story are you trying to tell? And I think for anyone our age in the US, like we know what story that is: you’re trying to conflate my Indianness with, with not just another genre of people, but a specific radical genre of that people’s group, and tie those things back together. Because there’s a lot of fear there, you know. And I’m not a person who necessarily, I’m not, I’m not a group of strong men hanging out outside, you know, I don’t look like a person to inspire fear. So if you want to sell that story, you have to get even more creative, you know, and that’s how they just do that.
Crystal And you said that they chose like your full name, right. And they do that all the time. They’re so good at what they do. They do that all the time, they put like all of the nicknames and they even collect tattoos some people may have. I remember you saying that. And it’s so frustrating how, how good they are, how creative they are.
Ra And to be fair, we do very similar things. You know, everybody when telling their story does the things that they need to do to convey the most creative point. Like, when I’m telling stories about people I met in prison, I’m not leading with what they did. I’m not leading with the worst moment of their life, I’m not leading with their government name. I’m telling you, maybe the softest introduction to that person that you can know. I say, I met a girl there, she just turned 18. And her hair was tangled. So she sat on my bed, and like, that’s your introduction to this person now. And it’s, it’s on purpose, right? We do these things on purpose so that we can shape these things. The difference is I’m not on CNN, I’m not 20% or whatever number of episodes, episode- sitcom type things are about cops and how great they are. I don’t have that level of an audience. And the economic implications for me are almost null, you know, they almost don’t exist at all. I mean, I’m a formerly incarcerated person talking about my experiences is like, reverse economic impact. It’s actively dangerous and makes you less likely to make an income. And I see Graham nodding over there. So it seems we have, I think we all have mirrored experiences in that.
Graham No, I fully agree. And I’m thinking of when I first came home, I made a conscious decision — this was before I was involved in things that I’m involved with now, in terms of, you know, movement work, etc. — I, I made a conscious decision that I’m not going to speak to people from a place of shame for what I’ve done. I hold myself accountable, and I’ve done the work that I need to do to not make those choices again, but I’m not going to and there was a notable effect on the– because I was working in very labor intensive spaces. And you know, one thing, one thing came up missing in the store that I was working in and everybody stared at me for the rest of the day until the item was found. And I wasn’t even in prison for stealing but it was just because of the stigma. I’m thinking also in what you said, like, we do it too, like when we post, when we post stuff, on any of the stuff that we have just personal accounts for, like Facebook, Instagram, etc. I’m thinking selectively about the pictures that I choose; very selectively about the words that I choose in the attached post. And so that’s one person thinking of the impact it’s going to have on his family and friends and how he wants to influence them to “thumbs up” or “heart” something. Just think, when you have a room full of people– it is, they are really good at their jobs, like Crystal said. They’re really good at what they do. And the fear sets in for me, and I’d love to hear your thoughts on this, like the fear sets in for me on this massive conspiracy to influence the minds of all these people. But really, it’s a room of people that are doing their job. Their job is to sell you something, and they’re selling it to you. And oftentimes, that’s fear, and reconfirmed prejudice and biases. But like, they are really good at their jobs.
Ra They are. And to your point, there’s a whole roomful, there’s a lot of them. And, and that’s where it starts to get really slanted against anyone who’s had any type of marginalized experience because this roomful of people, –like, there’s just more money, there’s more money in that, you know. If every nonprofit working in the decarceral space in the state of California had two people in a room, we wouldn’t have as many people as the LAPD has to do that same job, you know? So we’re just, we’re dramatically outnumbered in that sense. And I think that can be disheartening. So I don’t want to like land that thought there. I think one of the important things to remember is that, like, people are always looking for the better story, the more interesting story, the more whole story. So even if you accept something as marginally true, like Crystal’s experience with people, like, accepting…. Like that dissonance, that silence you get, Crystal, when you when you point out your family? That’s them adding nuance to the story, because it does, it does make sense. It does ring true, they do know their neighborhood, they do know you. And it takes a story that they believe 20% and kind of shakes it up, you know? I think that’s kind of the job we’re working towards. We’re never gonna be louder, or not in a long time. But we can be disruptive. And we can be actively disruptive. And I think that’s why stories are so important. Our stories are so important. And us being pretty loud about the media literacy that we experience, so that people can start borrowing that too, because not everyone has these lenses. So sharing those lenses can be like, you know, you take a topic, and you put our lens to it. And it’s going to be a different thing than the average standard American.
Graham I like that. And my my follow up question to that is: what are some, like, immediate steps that we can do in terms of being more disruptive in terms of that? And I think contrasting is a powerful start. I’m thinking of, like, something that’s very popular right now, like Dahmer, that’s taking place and I’ve seen so many posts. Like I find it really interesting that people who probably maybe never thought about Jeffrey Dahmer in their life, watch a 10 episode, nine episode, series and have all sorts of things to say on social media platforms about it. But like the contrasting that I’ve observed on TikTok, on Insta, in terms of like different media representation, in reference to Dahmer, who was a white man, and situations that have occurred in communities of people of color prior to. Like, I think that those are powerful contrasts. What’s some other things that we can do to be more vocally disruptive?
Ra Yeah, I think Dahmer is a great example. Because you get to see a lot of the media impact on all sides. Like, why this show? Why now? You know, after a uprising that has kind of turned America’s head on what we think of policing, and what we think of the need for policing. Why is it that suddenly now we want to tell these stories of of characters that push the boundaries of what we can forgive easily, you know? So I think the timeline there tells itself. Like, we know, we know why now, right? We’re trying to, we’re trying to rehash, we’re trying to shine up the cop image as much as possible. And we’re seeing that in all, all our TV right now, as much, as commonly as possible. But then why tell the story in that way? You know, one thing that caught me about the Dahmer story is… there’s a, there’s a human, very human conflict happening on TikTok and Insta right now where white women, normally white women, are going really hard for Dahmer, and kind of suddenly spontaneously being abolitionist in this one case. And obviously people of color feel a way about that, because this is a person who killed people of color. And in their commentaries, in the white women commentaries, it’s often come– things like it wasn’t grisly enough, it wasn’t gruesome enough. And lots of media literacy questions come to mind. Like for one, why are we so used to seeing black bodies in a grisly form? You know, how many times have you seen a dark skinned body, you know, wounded, dismembered, all these terrible things? And again, I look Indian, I am mixed, but I look Indian. And I think for most of my life, whenever I see that on the media, it’s in the representation of someone who’s enslaved, subjugated in some other way, or suffering, you know, impoverished and things like that. And that is not my experience of my skin color, but it is the experience that I have through media. And, and so it is probably–people who have never, maybe never met an Indian person–It’s their only experience and their tolerance level for what they’re willing to accept under that framework is, is too high, like media has stretched it too much. But even beyond that is like, Why was the show frameworked in a way where sympathy could be found, where sympathy could be dug up? Like, what was the purpose of that conflict? Like, who really started it? You know, there’s so many different ways to look into these things. And I think one is just participating in these conversations. I know it can be uncomfortable. And again, we think very much about our platforms. But when you see a friend posting something about “I’m glad they’re in prison”, or “I’m glad they’re not in prison”, like, these are these are good moments to investigate, like, where these feelings are coming from, you know? What type of, what type of this literacy are they picking up as, as law, as what they believe to be true about the world? So yeah, just participating. Listening to the conversations is also really helpful, because it lets you know where you need to disrupt. You know, for me, I’ve seen an alarming rise in “Thank goodness for cops” media. So my instinct now is to push back as much as possible. And I think one of the things that I said about media literacy when I defined it is like the ability to create. And that’s super important, because, like, we can make this too: we can write op eds, we can write press releases, we can actively do things to, to disrupt. And if we’re not creating media, then we aren’t as literate as we could be.
Crystal I know around the same time that this whole Jeffrey Dahmer show is coming out, we are also seeing trailers of a movie coming out on Gabby Petito. And if you don’t know, Gabby, is — was a woman who went on a road trip with her partner. And she didn’t come back. And people were looking for her for a while, and turns out that he killed her. And there is a lot of people who were angry, saying that it’s too soon to tell that story, that we don’t actually know what happened on the trip. Yeah, just angry. Like, why are we telling the story of Gabby when this just happened? So it’s really interesting to see the contrast between, you know, what you were saying with Jeffrey Dahmer and with certain victims. And my question for you or Graham, if you had any thoughts, is one thing that stood out to me is that you said that even the timing of when the show was released is very telling. And for me, I, I watched the show, I admit, I watched the show with my mom, and for me it made the police look very bad. Like even my mom’s like, “oh, cops are never good for anything.” You know? To me, that didn’t make them look like heroes, that didn’t make them look good. So do you think, Ra, that that’s just because of my lens, because I’m a woman of color?
Ra It made them look present. And that’s that’s what’s important. Because it isn’t really that they — humans are very forgiving, of like, good job, bad job, that type of stuff. Where we’re not forgiving is like– this, this story that disruptors, people like us have been telling people with data for a long time — is that we give these, we give this organization millions, billions of dollars nationwide. And where are they? Where are they in anything? And just being present, just reminding you that you live in a world with police, is something that’s really compelling. Because at several points through it, and I didn’t watch it, but it’s just the way these things go, there’s usually moments where, where you feel like “the police should be doing this, the police should be…” you’re problem solving with the answer of police. And that’s very powerful. Because you know, you you’re you’re telling yourself, your audience interpretation of that is that the police should have been there to do this. They didn’t do a good job, sure. But they were the solution. You see it similarly– and like I again, I mentioned, I like sci fi and fantasy–the worlds where there are no police, you know, and there’s total chaos. And it’s like, this is a show without any police and somehow it’s telling a stronger narrative about policing than one where they’re happy and joyful and chatting.
Graham Yeah, what’s sticking out to me is there’s a specific scene where one of Jeffrey Dahmer’s victims was a 14 year old boy. I’m watching the show right now, I’m on Episode Five. And I find myself, like, having an internal conflict because I have the, what I stand for and what I believe in as a worldview and I also, I mean, it’s obviously reprehensible it terrible things happen. And also the backstory of Jeffrey Dahmer is someone who’s experienced trauma, someone who’s experienced neglect, like, like I feel compassion for the things that he went through and also can’t seem to balance the scale in terms of like what, like it, none of it justifies obviously. Anyways, there’s a specific scene where there’s a 14 year old boy who was a victim who had escaped Jeffrey Dahmer ‘s house and is sitting on the porch and the voices that are most amplified in that moment and also blunted by police, which I’ll get to, is the community. Like, the community is circled around the boy, he’s sitting on the stoop. Jeffrey Dahmer comes home. The cops are there. Jeffrey Dahmer somehow convinces the cops that this is his boyfriend, and he’s taking him back in the house. And the cops let him take him back in the house. Then, there they play a recording, or a simulation of a recording, of one of the neighbors who was calling the police to verify: “Did anything happen with this case? Because that, I think that was a young boy, it was a 14 year old boy, he looked young.” And the cop’s like “No, he’s not. He was his boyfriend. He was 19.” Da da da. It had done no back search. So I think like, I guess my point in saying that is like, there’s a narrative that can be amplified in terms of community, because the community felt like they had no power in the situation because of the involvement of the police. Right? So the storyline is that the police have the ultimate power. But if the community had been mobilized in a way that we speak of often in abolitionist circles, like if they had been mobilized and felt empowered to have their voices given back, like, that situation could have been mitigated, that situation may never have taken place. So I don’t know if there was a question there. But I did, I did, … that was a reflection based off of what y’all were saying in terms of Dahmer.
Crystal And that’s something that we talked about in Episode One, where we always take the police as being the experts, and always take their perspective and point of view, but we never ask the community. And as you were talking Graham, one thing that I’ve, that I’ve seen a lot on TikTok as well, is people, people comparing what was on the show with what actually happened. And just how, how far from reality that show is. It’s obviously like, there’s a lot of drama in it, sensationalized. Everybody is rooting for, for the woman, who was the neighbor, and turns out, she was an immediate neighbor of him. She lived in the building or something like that. So as you were talking, and as I was talking, I was looking at, at Ra’s face, and her face was a little bit like, “they got you all, even if it’s a little bit, the show got you all”. And I really appreciate us having this conversation. And you pointing that out, Ra. Because as I think about the show, or as you know, new shows come up, or maybe our listeners are watching it now, they can keep this conversation in mind and everything that you’re saying, as they as they watch that show themselves or any other show that may come up.
Ra Yeah, I guess they got all of us. I mean, we’ve been talking about this for 15 minutes or something now. I do think it’s easier when you have a specific example. So maybe that’s why we got stuck. But there’s a little bit of, just, the dark and grisly is where human stories want to be.
Crystal I know we threw a lot of terminology out here and, and got a, you know, a little excited about applying all of this to the current show that we’re watching. But before we hop off, is there anything that we missed? Is there anything else that y’all would like to share with our listeners?
Ra I think one thing is that it is important to remember that these things are creative, but also that they’re part of the same creative story. So where we get numbed by things, that happens over time along all of, all of these platforms that we’re watching and listening to. So even when we look really objectively at one TikTok or one show, it’s like, what is this adding to this, like, total narrative that we live under? Because we do live in a police state. And so what does that look like, over time? Like, what is this whittling down or adding to? It can seem like one tiny brick, but it’s in this ginormous wall. You know, it’s all the same artist, I guess. And that’s an important thing to keep in mind. How are these working in conjunction with each other? I think outside of that, I don’t know if I missed anything else. What about you, Graham?
Graham I think you’ve covered things very thoroughly. I’m thinking off of what you just said. And something you mentioned earlier was, like, it can be disheartening. Like it seems like this massive infrastructure created to distort our thinking to their message, to their narrative. The thing I’m taking off of what you just said is: don’t get disheartened. Don’t get discouraged, and walk into, like, questioning the narrative that’s being told to you, and the whys, continually.
Crystal You’ve been listening to abolition is for everybody. Be sure to follow us @abolitionIs_ on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook for regular updates.
Graham If you want to continue supporting this podcast and our work overall, you can donate to support Initiate Justice at initiatejustice.org/donate
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