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Transcript: Season 3, Episode 9, Let’s Talk: Changing the Narrative w/ Rasheeda

[intro music begins] 

Crystal

abolition is for everybody is a podcast that tackles the sometimes-difficult conversations around prison abolition. I’m Crystal.

Graham

And I’m Graham. This season is about the media’s involvement in carceral or abolitionist thinking.

Crystal

How it uses narratives to impact, radicalize, and shift culture. 

Graham

Just a reminder friends, though the title of this episode may give you some warning, remember that harm itself tends to create situations of alternate harms. 

Crystal

There will likely be other painful topics brought up too. Take care of you.

[intro music ends]

Crystal Hi, everyone, welcome to episode nine of abolition is for everybody, our last episode of Season Three. In Season Three, we talked about the media and its impact on our communities with the way they portray our realities. We know that everything we talked about was hard to listen to and at times might have been a little bit discouraging, so before ending the season, we wanted to talk about work that folks like us are doing in our daily lives to change the narrative on things like houselessness, incarceration, immigration and drugs, just to name a few. So to do that, we’re joined by Rasheeda a very special and good friend of ours, Rasheeda, can you please introduce yourself to our listeners?

Rasheeda Hello, listeners. My name is Rasheeda Jones, I am from Los Angeles, California, South Central to be exact. And first, I just want to say thank you for having me. It is an honor to be here with you all you all are my Initiate Justice family. And again, just super excited to share this platform and space with you all. I work as a mental health advocate, in my everyday life, servicing Black and brown communities in the school system. I’m also an author of a book titled Justice and then I also do community work as a community organizer, making sure we break isolation within incarceration, and encourage people to have a voice in the things that matter to them.

Crystal We’re so excited to have you. Rasheeda was actually one of the first people that I met on this new journey after my brother was incarcerated, so we had a lot of healing and bonding moments, and, you know, sharing the trauma that our brothers are incarcerated, so I’m so excited that you’re here. I know that you do a lot of very important and meaningful and impactful work, so to begin, I want to learn a little bit more about your book, Justice. I, I love that you created that, so can you tell us a little bit more about that and, and why you felt it was important to create that.

Rasheeda Thank you, Crystal. So So yes, I created a book title Justice. And I am a self published author, meaning I put all of the work into promoting it and getting it out there and so this book is just a personal story of mine. I wrote it from the perspective of my niece and nephew whose father is incarcerated, which is my brother. And as I wrote the book, and finished it, I realized that I was also, also speaking to the inner child in me as my dad was also incarcerated. And so it was a way to empower my niece and nephew, give them a tangible tool. At the time, we were talking about entrepreneurship, and I just wanted something that they can identify with, but and then as the project became like, a tangible tool, I realized that a lot of the students that I was serving could relate to it. And then I realized that the community I was in, which is the Initiate Justice, community, Essie Justice community, a lot of people can benefit from the story. And so that’s really what the stories about a young boy whose Dad is incarcerated. He’s having a lot of feelings of embarrassment, a lot of feelings of shame and isolation, because of the stigma that’s surrounded by incarceration, no one really wants to talk about what those effects are. And so not to tell too much of the story, he starts off feeling all of these negative feelings, and then it turns into an empowering story where he’s able to share his story and you have a group of community, which are other students who also share similar experiences. And so that’s the idea, sharing your story, but being held in community when you share it, and also having tangible tools and coping skills to navigate through those traumatic experiences. Because like you mentioned, dealing with incarceration is a traumatic experience, no matter race, age, sex, gender, whatever, it’s it’s traumatic.

Graham I really relate. I’m gonna have to get this book. I haven’t read it, but I’d like to get a copy of it, because my father was also incarcerated when I was growing up, and I remember that feeling. It was the 90s. And, you know, it was a lot less talked about than it is today. And like growing up, it was always like that secret that you didn’t tell people because you didn’t want to feel judged or stigmatized. So I really relate to that. I’m excited to read this.

Rasheeda And I think it I think it’s beneficial again, because I wrote it from the inner child. I’ve had a lot of great feedback in terms of adults saying that it was very adult friendly, and it spoke to the inner child in them. ‘

Crystal I love that you created this because I was very young when my brother was incarcerated the first time and my nephews very young, and my my brother has a daughter and they were very little when their own fathers were incarcerated and my nephews’ father as well- not my brother sons. I experienced that same need like to hide that my brother was incarcerated and didn’t really like talking about it and every time anybody would talk about it, I would cry. So one of the things that I’ve been following in your journey and writing this book is the amount of kids you have met, and like signed the book for and taking pictures with them. So I’m curious to know what that’s been like? Because you’re shifting the narrative in life live time, and looking at these young boys and girls going through things that we’ve been through that, like Graham said, we didn’t even talk about. So I’m curious to see what that experience has been like because the work that you’re doing now, and shifting the narrative with these kids is going to go with them through like future generations.

Rasheeda There’s so many perspectives I look at with this project, because one as someone in a school system, I’m looking at it in terms of education, like the the importance of literacy in our communities. A lot of our students are getting away from books, they’re on the iPads and reading is not, at least in the community that I serve, as a fluent and sell from an educator standpoint, I’m like, let me create something where kids can read and enjoy reading. And so the book is colorful, and the feedback that I’ve been receiving from that part is it’s an easy read for our students and it’s relatable in terms of what the kids are wearing in there in representation as to the characters looking like them from their hair, to the images on the wall. So I enjoy that feedback as an educator, that they’re enjoying the literacy part of it. From the mental health standpoint of it, that therapist in me is like, thank you so much for expressing how you feel, and allowing me to hold space for you and trusting me to tell me like, “you know, Miss. Jones, like, my dad is in jail and I felt how that boy felt.” And it makes me sad, because again, it’s like a trigger, because I was once that kid, but and then it also makes me like I’m honored to hold space for them is truly an honor to for these kids to trust me and so that’s one way that I perceive it. And then again, it’s the joy like, again, representation matters. Like I’m a Black woman from LA, I’m young and we don’t see that too often. At least I didn’t see it growing up. So for them to be able to say like, “Hey, I know an author, like you wrote a book” to show like that is actually attainable. And I did it by myself with no, you know, no handouts and no big budget. It was just like a leap of faith for me and following a dream. So there’s so many different avenues and ways in which I look at it. But ultimately, the feeling is like I’m very proud of the work. And I’m proud of the conversation that it’s creating. And I’m proud that again, not only do they read it, again, tangible tools are very important. And so it has questions like well, how does incarceration make you feel? That’s important, like we don’t ask those questions. And now that you feel that way, what can you do to feel better? What are some helpful things so it’s just again, you read it, you create dialogue, but then it also is a tool that navigates further discussion as to how you can navigate through the experience. So I know that that was a lot. But again, I view it in so many different ways. And each day I meet a kid, it always provides me something different, because everybody has different perspectives, and how they interpret the book, so it’s constantly a joy. When I hear the excitement from a student. The other day, a student came to my office and was like, ‘I seen your book in the store.’ And then once he said it, I ran to my car, and I grabbed a bookmark. And I gave it to him, he was like, ‘I can’t wait to read this to my sister.’ And it was a beautiful, a beautiful moment. Because again, my kids don’t like to read at school, like they hate English class. They hate writing. And I think it’s not that they hate it, but there’s challenges within that. So for them to be able to relate in terms of their personal experience and then at school again, it’s a really good feeling.

Graham Now, you and I have known each other for like, what, three and a half years now? We went through Institute together again, and we constantly run into each other in various meetings and little spaces, so I’m curious to know how how, you know, your community work is going outside of the book and what you’ve been engaged in recently?

Rasheeda So it’s been a while since I’ve been in space and that’s because the reality is that life is happening for a lot of people, and especially me, the book success has been good, but there was a time in my community organizing work, where I didn’t say no, and I wanted to be everywhere doing everything and it was stretching me really thin. And I realized, especially in the healing space, is there was so much more healing work that I needed. And so I have taken a step back, I’m still very active in in one of my organizations, Essie, in terms of breaking isolation, but I want to get back into the policy where because I do know like when you understand policy and implement policy and you go up there and you lobby on those bills that we talked about, that’s where the, I’m not gonna say the real work happens but that work is just as important, so all of the components are important. But I enjoyed that part of it, because that’s the part that I always shield away from. So right now, I’m still active in Essie, again, breaking isolation one woman at a time, making sure that their stories are heard, making sure that they feel seen, making sure that they understand that the system and when we talk about the incarceration system, that our loved ones are not inmates, our loved ones are not CDC numbers, and really empowering the women ad we do that through a 9 week cohort. So I’m still involved in the community, it’s just me understanding that I can’t be everywhere at all times, while still working my 9-5, while still trying to pursue my dreams as an author.

Graham I totally get that I went through the same thing. I think it was kind of taught. It was instilled into us to just say yes, just say, yes, just say it, because there’s so much to do. And if you volunteer for everything, there is no time for yourself.

Rasheeda Yeah, but it was Graham. It was easy, though, that we were able to do it because we had the autonomy of being virtual, so it was easy to hop off one thing and go to the next and go to the next. But now that we’re coming back into real spaces, it’s like, is that really realistic for me to be in to be, you know, downtown LA in 30 minutes? It’s just not.

Crystal I want to uplift and highlight that I think that goes back to us to working so tirelessly to change the narrative and show that not everything that is being shared on social media, or by the police or by CDC, or the carceral system is an accurate representation of what us and our loved ones are going through and what it means to be impacted by incarceration. Because I, I do the same thing, like wanting to sign up for everything and wanting to help with everything because I recognize the amount of work that needs to be done. I think one of the things that continues to shock me, I don’t know why, but it continues to shock me, it’s just the intentionality of the prison system, the prison industrial complex, and the media, being one of them. So that’s another thing I’ve added to my list of things I want to accomplish as an abolitionist- contradicting what the media is teaching us. And Graham, I know you do a lot of that work, too, so I’d love for you to share with the listeners, the type of work that you do to do that as well.

Graham Sure, my day job, my 9-5 is Success Stories Program and it was started at the same time as IJ actually. In the same prison, in the same visiting room, and the concept behind it is let’s, I mean, if I’m, if I’m gonna summarize, it’s like, let’s discuss the beliefs that we have beliefs being like the, like the founding force of of harm and oppression, right? Let’s discuss the beliefs that we have that are harming others, challenge those beliefs, and dismantle them. So that sounds very general, but in a very specific sense, we discuss patriarchy, and we discuss the effect of patriarchy. Patriarchy being both a culture and a belief system. That circumvents growth, and holds progress and also harms many, many people, primarily people of color and women. So it oppresses people of color, and women and it suppresses men in their ability to express emotions and relate to others in an effective way that isn’t based on dominance. So it’s a lot to say, like I work primarily in prisons. My work goes into, right now, 10 prisons, 4 high schools, 1 middle school, a youth center, and we’re working to get into spaces in other states and other countries. And it’s really, really beneficial work. I’m thinking about what you said about the intentionality of the prison system. So I just entered Wasco State Prison this week, and last week, so we’ve been contracted with Wasco for multiple years- clearance has been the issue. They’ve not been willing to clear us. Finally, they clear me. I go up, there’s an incident so we don’t get to have it. I go up this week and the person who I’m working with says, “Oh, well, we didn’t give them duckets duckets.” Or like, a piece of paper that their name is on it goes to the person in their cell so that they know to be somewhere at a certain time. So this sounds like a harmless mistake, but we don’t give them duckets because it’s a voluntary group. We don’t need to. It seems like an active consideration that didn’t happen, right? But that’s not what it is. It’s bred into the system to not care. So this is what really takes place. A list is put up in the wing where people live. They volunteer for a group not told the day, not told the time. Three months before, three months before the actual group is actually established and people come in, so with the prison with the system, the administration is thinking is they signed up they said “listen to the speaker” well the people in the cell are like if I put my name on a paper hoping that Ill get into a group that, almost never happens. So they had no idea that they were going to be there and the intentionality is, they don’t want people in groups. They don’t want people to come home. They don’t want people earning time off their sentences. That little act lack of consideration on the administration is part for the individual that works in the administration is like, “Oh, well, they should be on their game.” Right? But for, you know, on a human perspective, really it was it was intentional, it was an effort to keep people out of group by not letting them know that they need to be in a specific place at a specific time to get marked for a candidate to get time off your sentence. So I told the administration, and I told them, “you need to give them dockets because it makes no sense to think that 90 days after they put their name on a paper in the day room, that they’re going to know” Oh, I need to be in education at one o’clock on Monday on April 6, like that doesn’t make any sense.

Crystal I like how you’re like, “and I told them, I told them that I know that that’s what they’re doing.” So one question that has come up for me, one thing that I think about a lot when I do this work is the times that I’m feeling kind of tired and burned out and using, you know that a little bit of hope. Like there’s times that I have to wake up and just be like, “come on, Crystal. So you got this, like, there’s a lot of work to do.” And I’m wondering what it’s like with you all, like, all of the barriers that you face, Graham going inside the prisons, like I can’t imagine dealing with CDCR like on a daily, weekly basis, and you Rasheeda you know, I’ve followed your journey and I’ve seen everything that you go through, we all go through a system-impacted people, so curious to know what keeps you going, what makes it worth it?

Rasheeda I’m always rooted in my why. Why I’m doing what I’m doing. And so my why has always been like service to others. Service to people. Empowering myself. Empowering my community. But then ultimately, like, my goal in this work, is to free my brother, whose been wrongly incarcerated for the last 26 years. But when I say free him, I know that freeing him is freeing so many other of our loved ones. He’s in jail with a life without the possibility of parole sentence. I know, once his situation is overturned, everybody else has another chance at life and so I keep that at the forefront and that is so much bigger than me. But one thing that I have changed is when I’m tired, I remind myself to rest. I am no good to this work if I’m burnt out and I’m tired, and I’m weary. There’s enough people in the community to spread to spread the work. And so, for me, in this work, healing was my passion and so I went straight to the healing committee, and found purpose there and allow and create a space for people there. A mentor of mine, she said, “find your place in the struggle. Find your place in the front line and that doesn’t necessarily always have to be in the front. Maybe you’ll be in the back, maybe you’ll be cooking the meal, maybe you’ll be wiping the tears from someone, but wherever it is, again, you you can do all of it, but then what will you have for yourself?” And so I’m reminded of that. I’m reminded of my brother, and I’m always hopeful, I may be tired, but then I’m very hopeful that he will be set free. I’m very hopeful that this system will end. I’m very hopeful that I’ll see it in his lifetime. But if I don’t, that the work that all that all that we’re doing, and the generations after us will continue in this movement to end it. And so even being in spaces like this Crystal, hearing your story, Graham meeting you when you were fresh out and hearing your story, like those are things that are inspiring me to continue the work. I was inspired that you would come all the way from Orange County, Graham, to downtown LA for us to sit in these three hour meetings, you know, to learn the work and then to see where we are now. And the same for you Crystal, like seeing you come in and like look at where you are, you brought your sister along and now you guys are trailblazing in the work and so those are moments that keep me going.

Graham And I think I think my response would be the same the why. When I, when I met you I was fresh out I was two and a half months out. And I was like terrified to jaywalk. And there was all sorts of things I hadn’t done. And that I don’t know if I was going to do or not. And I was working in a moving company just starting with Success Stories. And then you fast forward four years and I don’t know if you all relate because I know both of you personally and within workspaces, like we dug in, we jumped in and said yes to everything, like we were talking about earlier. And then you see the amount of work that there is, and it’s overwhelming, it probably relates a lot to the sensation that some of the listeners may have had from listening to Season Three, because a lot of the problems seem way bigger than what one person or 10 people or 10,000 people could do and that connects directly with general burnout from doing too much and not taking care of yourself and you sit back and one day you wake up and you go and I have too much to do and you don’t feel the joy that comes from the work that we get to do in that moment. Maybe it comes back later in the day. I don’t know. But I think like personally, that’s my experience and a way that I tend to that is I give myself I give myself leave to take care of myself more often today, I’ve experienced a significant amount of ups and downs, I guess I don’t want to say more or less than anyone else, but a significant amount of ups, significant amount of downs in recent months, and, and if I don’t take care of myself, then mole hills turn into mountains, and everything seems impossible. And I don’t feel joy from my work and I’m just driving three hours to a prison, miserable the whole time, miserable the whole time back in there completing whatever’s in my curriculum, from point A to point Z. And it just becomes work. And I think, the work is different than actual work. So I found that like, realizing that this is no work like this is life work. This isn’t about a paycheck, it’s not about making it from 9-5, even though we referenced that earlier in the in the meeting, it is the work like, and staying clear on why that needs to happen is super important to me. And it’s my experience, it’s super important to me, so that I can keep the hope alive. Because otherwise, the amount of obstacles that you hit feel insurmountable.

Crystal I love the aha moments when I do the work. So like when you were talking about Rasheeda when you meet the children, and even like the adults that realize that they’re not alone, or that realize that something can be can be done about this, those and like when people come home, I love those moments, but also the moments of realization that people have. I was a Co-Host on Season Two, and I’ve had people come up to me and tell me that they’ve learned so much from the podcast. Or last year in 2022, we had an art gallery that featured 11 artists, incarcerated artists, from the state of California and I have a lot of people tell me that didn’t realize that somebody can get six life sentences, or somebody can have life without the possibility of parole like your brother does Rasheeda and I’ve had people in the past, tell me, “oh, like your brother’s incarcerated, but your family is so nice.” And I didn’t realize until later that it’s like the narrative that the media is showing them and just everything that they’re consuming everywhere. So for me, it is the freedom days of folks who’ve been incarcerated, and the moment of realizations in my community that something better and we can build something better and something more empathetic and something more loving, that takes care of one another, so I think those are the moments that have been important for me and part of the reason why I love this podcast so much. We created this podcast, because we realized that in order to accomplish abolition, we have to shift the narrative that people have on people who are incarcerated, we have to tell the stories of people who are directly impacted, and what could have helped us and what could help us in this work as far as like to free our brothers, sisters, moms, so yeah, the the podcast was born because we know that that’s something that needs to happen.

Rasheeda I would like to add, as I was listening to you both it takes me back to my recent experience, I just completed the Los Angeles Marathon. We ran from the Dodger Stadium, to Century City, right? And initially, when I was asked, why was I doing it, I was like, because I just want to prove that I can. And I wanted it to make me mentally strong, physically strong. And it was something that I could do for myself. Like, I feel like I’m always doing something for the purpose of others, which is good, but I was like, I’m owning this experience. This is for Rasheeda, but then as I’m training and as I’m preparing for it, it hit me that my brother has been incarcerated for 26 years. And then as I’m running, I’m realizing like the amount of liberty and freedom that I have just been able to use my body and go across Los Angeles on foot and then it kind of made me sad that my brother was not able to experience this. And so like the meaning behind the running got deeper and deeper. And so I changed it. I was like I’m running on behalf of him and then I’m running on behalf of all of those men or men and women who are behind bars in prison who don’t have the opportunity to do so. Like I think they said you have to run around the yard, maybe 90 something times to equal 26 miles. Like that’s a lot. But as I’m doing it, I was like, yeah, I’m dedicating this and I’m running for justice. So now people are like, well, justice of what? Now you have people curious. And so I’m like, well, Justice for my brother and now I’m telling his story and then that allows me the opportunity to talk about like how incarceration has an impact on people and how this has become a coping skill. And so something that turned into a personal goal for me again, still tied back to like, something bigger than me. And so I was able to run each mile in honor of him and then more people were able to hear his story and now you know, people are looking like, well, what can I do to help and that’s that’s the work. So even though I’m not literally sitting in a community center and, and talking and you know, this conversation, we’re changing the narrative, a small conversation about, you know, justice and what you can do and how you can take a political stance, and then something that changes something. And so I just wanted to share that story, how something so personal became something so big and monumental for me, on behalf of my family, and community, and then again, I’m able to promote mental health in the process, physical health in the process, those are moments where again, it becomes bigger than us, because we need those things to survive, and to keep the balance in this work.

Graham I love that. Thank you so much for sharing that Rasheeda. So what would you all tell people who aren’t impacted by incarceration? What should they be on the lookout for? What should they pay attention to?

Crystal I would say, to listen to the voice or voices of those who are impacted, like pay attention to our stories, and what we have to say, and to those who are formerly incarcerated, and to those who are currently incarcerated. Go read Justice, and share that with the little ones in your life and the adults in your life and share the story that Rasheeda just told about the marathon and how impactful that was. And I mentioned the gallery earlier, go read the stories of the incarcerated artists and why they decided to tell the story that they’re telling you and once you start listening to those that are directly impacted, you’ll be able to understand what it is that that’s happening, and what it is that US abolitionists are trying to build for our communities.

Rasheeda I would say to the people to remain informed and aware, whether you’re impacted or not, and then use your power for something. Again, that’s bigger than you. Everybody possesses power, but what you choose to do with that power makes all the difference, so if you want to be more involved, get involved. And then once you’re involved, again, do the work.

Crystal Yeah. And if if somebody wants to use their power to support you, what what can they do? Please tell us more about how somebody can support you follow you and your journey.

Rasheeda Yes, absolutely. First, I just want to thank you all, again, for allowing me to have this space and share this space with you all. It’s been a minute. So I am glad to be here again, you can follow me at Tawfiqs Publishing and that’s on Instagram. The book is titled Justice. So you type it in Google, you can find it on Amazon, on bookbaby.com. If you’re interested in me coming to a school, organization, to read more about it, there is a curriculum that I have with the book. So once I read it, there’s an activity book and just sharing space. So again, if you’re interested that is my contact information, tawfiqspublishing@gmail tawfiqspublishing.com @tawfiqspublishing at Instagram.

Graham Thank you so much for joining us, Rasheeda. Thank you, Crystal for an amazing season. This is the end of Season Three and remember to ask questions, ask questions, ask questions about what’s going on around you, ask questions about what’s happening, things that you feel are unjust. Ask continual questions. I think that the narrative reinforces a silence for folks who are previously incarcerated or incarceration impacted and it’s very important that you ask questions and speak up. That’s how we find our power and we identify our power and that’s how we build power.

Crystal You’ve been listening to abolition is for everybody. Be sure to follow us @abolitionIs_ on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook for regular updates. 

Graham If you want to continue supporting this podcast and our work overall, you can donate to support Initiate Justice at initiatejustice.org/donate

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