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Adam Hi, everyone. Welcome to our sixth minisode of abolition is for everybody, the one where we talk about organizing while incarcerated. For those who do not know, minisodes are much shorter, and a little less polished, but still super friendly, and still all about abolition. My name is Adam. I was co-host for Season Two of abolition is for everybody.
Lee My name is Lee, and I was the co-host on Season One. Adam, you and I were both organizing while we were incarcerated. We were affiliated with Initiate Justice on the inside as members as inside or organizers and now, on the other side of those electrified razor wire fences, we’re still with IJ. I am now the manager of the Inside Organizing department, and you are the Inside Programs Associate. I guess part of our current responsibilities, we now assist and support those that are still incarcerated with their organizing efforts. So one of the things I feel is important to mention is the barriers that we face while organizing and advocating while being incarcerated. You know, when I was in there, things like not having contact with everybody, all the time, locked downs, feeling oppressed, the administration, motivation, free time, even lack of hope, all of those things kind of came into play with me and how I was organizing inside, how I was advocating- why don’t you give a couple of examples of like, what was your experience of being an IO?
Adam Yeah, my experience as an Inside Organizer, it was different. It was challenging, it was welcoming, because I still was I still was participating and going to different groups to different classes, like Narcotics Anonymous, CGA, Criminal Gang Members Anonymous, a variety of different self help groups and so being able to attend these classes, as well as attend my college classes, as well as be an Inside Organizer, it had its challenges, because as an Inside Organizer, right, our main, one of our main objectives is to be able to spread the word about what IJ got going on when it comes to laws and wanting to get people involved, right? This is something that we actively do, so I had to speak to a lot of people. I had to be around a lot of people, but I had to make time for that. Because, you know, I had work, I had other programs that I was going to like I mentioned before, as well as school so those was some of the challenges, but the welcoming, and the positive parts about it was when I am passing this information along. When I first started inside, organizing, I helped organize on Proposition 57. And with that proposition, I was talking to people on the yard. I was talking to
Lee That was the credit earning bill, right?
Adam Yes, I’m sorry. Thank you. Yeah, that was the credit earning bill. And so you know, we’re trying to get people involved to get their family involved, so I used to have to get on phone calls with people’s family to share with them at different times and different hours, right?
Lee They would just like call you over to the phone and be like, “Hey, call my mom-
Adam Yeah, I’d be sitting there watching a movie.
Lee “about the credit earning”.
Lee Yes, I’m sitting there, you know, watching a movie, eating popcorn, whatever they’re like, “Yo, can you come talk to my family about Proposition 57?” So I’m like, “Hey, Proposition, proposition 57 is a credit earning bill.” And then I list some of the things because, you know, I will have my notes pretty much on hand because at any given time, you’re going to be, you’re going to be advocating, you’re going to be speaking about what Initiate Justice is doing, what laws Initiate Justice is supporting. And even some of the challenges with with COs, Correctional Officers, you know, they they want to know, you know, what do you got going on and why you you know, talking to so many people and they start to question you. They start the search your cell. To search your area. And so, you know, it had it had a lot of different challenges, but nevertheless, I knew that I was I was helping, you know?
Lee Yeah. And look, you brought up something like, that’s super important that that I think that is um, that is often, you know, misunderstood or overlooked- just the political climate in there and how things are are driven with folks inside there’s not a lot of interaction or communication on some facilities, like at least the maximum security facilities where you know, there’s four phones for 200 people and to have somebody get on there and talk to their family member or their loved one. You know, you get 15 minutes if you’re lucky, a day to be a to talk to your loved ones and to call you over and and have you get on the phones and start to talk to them and making sure that they have the right information, you know, those, those are all little administrative barriers that we kind of have to cross over. And, you know, they don’t want us on the phones with other people’s family members, by they, I mean, the administration, right, there’s rules against that, or there are some things where it’s not necessarily supported, it’s frowned upon. And then, you know, throughout the years, there’s all of these different bills that were gonna pass that never passed and so people start to feel like let down, you know? They lose hope on these bills and things that they thought were going to allow them to return back to their their family members or their loved ones at a sooner date, or quicker, or it was going to offer them some relief from the the exorbitant sentence that they may be suffering from. And so just kind of like talking to them and telling them like, “Hey, we’re all big in our own way, like we all have, like a huge role to play in our legislative process.” And so how did you, like come up against things like that? And how did you kind of navigate, I guess, the despondency or the, you know, the lack of, of hope, or the interest that people had in bills that may not directly affect them, but affected the whole, like, beast of the California, like legislative and laws? And that whole process?
Adam Yeah, that’s a good question. So something that I that I like to do, and I still share to this day, even when we go inside and do workshops, and you’ve heard me say this many times, Lee, is that, you know, somebody say, “it doesn’t affect me.” I say,”Well, my family member that’s voting on this don’t affect me.” Or “My family member that voted on XYZ, that didn’t affect me.” Right? And so I kind of, I try to get them to see that, wow, that is bigger than me, right? And then when they, when they see that, wow, like, it is bigger than it just being for me, but what I can give and the impact that I can have on my community, I think that’s where they I have seen many, many people have wants to become an Inside Organizer, right? They like “Yo, I want to get involved because I didn’t know that this is how important I am in this fight. Even though the bills don’t necessarily affect me, we working on change and I want to be a part of that.” And going back to proposition 57, right, it was so many people that was like, “Oh, you know what I don’t, I don’t believe it’s gonna pass. It don’t affect me.” This, this and this, and this. And when that passed, listen, there was a lot of people that wanted to be a part of the community, and wanted to get started. And now to me that was motivating, because that showed that, hey, we do got this and we and we can, you know, we can get over these barriers together, whether inside or outside. And so you know, when we look at the role of an Inside Organizer, and the many different hats on the Inside Organizer wears, at any given point you have to be someone that can share the word about the legislation process, right? And then you have to be a person that civically engages from prison, through phone calls, through letters, or even if you’re talking to different free staff, which is people that work inside a prison that that are not correctional officers. And so you know, it’s just about making sure that we are keeping our hope up. When people’s voice is heard, when people feel that they are a part of something and they are making change, that’s where the hope comes from and that’s where we, we continue to build together. And, you know, when I first started being become an IO at the facility, I was at, you know, it was it was only about two of us. And now, you know, see CVSP, this facility, has a lot of Inside Organizers and I’m grateful that I was a part of being an original Inside Organizer, and help to to pass along solid information, but at the same time get people involved, because that’s really being a part of the community.
Lee Yeah, no, that’s a trip because I remember, like, when I first started working with IJ, you were still incarcerated. And I was, I was taking phone calls from folks inside, from you, from folks like you and you know, we were talking about the different bills and the different laws that were kind of on the books, and, you know, getting our ideas from folks inside seeing, like, what’s going on in there, what’s important to people, some barriers, some things that they’re coming up against? And this was common, you know, folks were like, “Hey, that doesn’t affect me” Or sometimes they’d be like, “Man, we like we put in all this work for this or that one- it didn’t make it across the finish line, or the governor vetoed it and these are all obstacles. These are all barriers that we come up against.” And you know, when we’re talking to different people inside, we have to be relatable to them, and they have to be relatable to us. And so, you know, like you were talking about with with different segments of the population inside that you were talking to whether it be administration, whether it be counselors, whether it be correctional officers, whether it be folks that are incarcerated, it didn’t matter, right? We have to be able to be on our A-game, and we have to be on point. And so I think that’s really where the support from us, you know, the Inside team that goes in, and the support of like the volunteers and-
Adam Shoutout, shoutout to our volunteers that help us.
Lee Yeah, all of those little things that kind of connect it, and being able to be there for them. And to be able to help them or assist them in networking is, is like one of the key factors of connecting the folks inside to the community outside and connecting the community outside to the folks inside so we all feel like we’re a part of this movement, that is that is happening with our social justice movement, and changing these laws and bringing our loved ones home much quicker. And so, you know, there’s all kinds of like things that come to mind, or there’s all kinds of like scenarios that start to come to my head and one of them and I would I would offer you to share too is, one of them is, I was inside with this with this individual named CJ. And CJ, we used to work out like in the same area and when we were working out, he would always- this is how I first got introduced to IJ. He would he would always come out with these like these little newsletters and he was like, “Lee, like the I know you’re involved in like all these classes, and you’re teaching, guiding, and you’re creating, like, what’s up with IJ? Man, why aren’t you supporting more with IJ? And I was like, “Who’s IJ?” And this was like an, I don’t know, like 2017 or something like that, I think IJ had been on the scene for about a year at that time and when he first brought it up to me, he started to show me some things about what, uh, what IJ was doing out here and how they were like a small, small org at the time, but the information that was being provided was like, on point. Like, it was like, they were on their stuff and so we were able to then take that information into all the classes that we were going into whether you talked about, you know, CGA or Narcotics Anonymous, you know, I was doing other like trauma-based classes, like helping helping youth classes I was doing, like, they were classes that were also based around people coming out of their shell and so in part of coming out of their shell is feeling connected to the community. And when we talk about connecting the inside and the outside community, we it was an easy transition for that. And so what are some of like, the, by the way, CJ is out now starting to get involved with with IJ, so we’re super excited to have him, you know, being able to call us up and, and talk to us and FaceTime with him and seeing him do like his thing, and he’s just fresh out. But um, what was your like, you know, some memorable moments that you may have had while inside and organizing and how important it was to you, in your like belief that you were a part of the community?
Adam For sure, for sure and shoutout to all the IOs that came home as well. You know, quite a few of us, you know, saying some shoutout to the Inside Organizers that are now with us continuing this work. So one of my most fond memories was working on ACA 6, which is now Prop. 17, which is restoring voting rights for people that are on parole or you know, formerly incarcerated at one point, in the state of California. You could not vote if you was on parole or probation, thanks to Initiate Justice, Prop. 17, We can vote you know, if you’re on parole, you’re on probation, you can vote so I just wanted to share to who’s listening to this, you are on parole or probation, make sure you vote.
Lee Wait, hold on. One of the things too that I want you to highlight, when that came across the telly, and you were inside and you saw that ACA 6, which then became Prop. 17, passed-
Adam Yeah.
Lee from the voters, what were you doing? Because I want to share with you what we were doing at that time.
Adam Yeah, right. Oh my god, right. Like I just got chills, so let’s go back to 2018. 2018, I’m working with IJ I mean, I’m foot to the pavement. I’m in yard rain, snow, it don’t matter. I’m talking to everybody. Right? I’m getting the word to everybody. You know, there’s a lot of people I was doubting the whole nine, but I was asked to do an interview with Initiate Justice. And I remember having to sign paperwork to get special time off, kind of like how we do now. Right? If you want time off, you got to put that paperwork in, right? So I was working in PIA which is Prison Andustry Authority, which is everybody that’s incarcerated works with PIA, pretty much, not everybody that’s incarcerated. But PIA is is a legit business for people that are, that are incarcerated, the wages is better. Not as good as it should be. People really should get paid more, but that’s for another topic. So I was working in PIA right? And I was a lead clerk. I asked to get some time off because I had to do this interview and I just remember running across the yard because I got to get to the phone at 11 o’clock and it just so happened a person that that’s out there that’s running a phone schedule, which is the correctional officers usually sometimes we you know, they may trip on you if it’s not your phone time. It was actually some people that I knew were, but they was like, “Ah, you’re running late, you running late.” They was like, just clowning with me, you know, kind of giving me a hassle and I’m like, “Yo, y’all playing and clowning with me, I really need to get to this call.” Because I don’t know what, you know what the team had going on right? Now, it’s, you know, 11 o’clock, I got to be on the phone at 11 o’clock. So I get on the phone and I just remember just talking about if I can vote, right? If I can vote, and I did an interview, and it’s on YouTube, you can look it up, I don’t know which link, but um, I shared. And to me, that was so empowering. I came back and everybody was like, “Yo, how was it? How was the interview? How did it go?” And then it was somebody else that was in PIA with me that they actually did an interview his name is James Jenkins. And he was like, “Oh, man” he was like, “It was so cool.” You know? So that was like a real moment. But when they passed, oh, yeah, I was in the fire house. his is you know, we’re talking about the pandemic, you know, what I’m saying? And I was just getting ready to come home. And you know, we struggled during the pandemic. For IOs it was like crazy, because everybody was locked down so you know, trying to inside organize, and trying to spread the word about this. It was it was struggles, but nevertheless, it was able to pass and I just remember hearing the news. And I’m like, “Wow” like, Here I am, you know, I put all this work into it, as an Inside Organizer and it actually passed and then you know, being able to come home and actually vote, you know, that was just amazing. So, yeah, so what was your what was your memory, man?
Lee Yeah, I mean, listen, we were stomping, obviously, for Prop 17 and in trying to get it across the finish line and that’s when our team was growing, and the volunteers were super active, and I remember we had a watch party, over at our Executive Director’s house, Taina’s house. And you know, it was like, decorated, there was like food out and we were there as a team. There were probably I think, like six or seven of us there as a team. And I’ll never forget to because we also had a cookie decorating contest and Crystal was on my team, or I was on her team, actually, because she actually won for us, but we won, we won the cookie decorating contest and we got like a pair of iPhone earbuds and so we were stoked, but I remember, like when they came through, and they started, like, rolling out the numbers, we had like balloons going, we were taking pictures, like we were super excited, because we knew, like how historic this was. I believe this was a law that was on the books since like, 1847, since the beginning of California, that folks that had a that were on parole, couldn’t vote. And so it was like, it was really historic for us. And we were we were excited. And it just gave us that extra like umph, that extra, you know, belief in not only ourselves, but belief in what we were doing. And so we started you know, organizing even more and you talk about the pandemic, you know, the pandemic really opened up a lot of complications for folks inside. They weren’t getting, they weren’t able to really talk to their family members, phone calls were very limited if at all, they weren’t able to have contact with one another inside, that was very limited. And so you know, word of mouth travels very quickly in there. and so they had to adapt. They’re yelling through vents, yelling out their doors to people telling them what they need to do, telling them about different bills and laws.
Adam Seeing them at medical and you know different, you know areas.
Lee And then they had limited work to where you weren’t able to see people. You didn’t have access to the to the library. And you know, we were going through our own own difficulties out here too, but we adapted.
Adam It was tough.
Lee And I think that shows the resiliency of our Inside Organizers. It shows the resiliency of our Outside Organizers with IJ. We started adapting. We started finding new ways to be able to advocate and to be able to communicate, you know, one of the things is is creating, you know, the curriculum and making sure that the training was going through, like the curriculum is a 62 page document that explains person-centered language, intersectionality, the legislative process, and civic engagement, for folks inside and being able to disseminate this information to people inside. We started doing that via mail. Mail was slowed down, obviously, because they had to, everybody’s was paniced. They didn’t know what how, how COVID was actually spread. And so, but we persevered and we were able to get this curriculum inside with all of the information that was necessary that people would need to know about the legislative process. And so even when I would hear stories, when they were able to use the phone, I’d get phone calls from people inside and they’d be like, “Yeah, I did the curriculum.” Like “I passed around my workbook. I showed other people what I was doing, I shared with them” like “We’re in talks with it”, like they’re bored in a sense, because now they’re on lockdown. They don’t have access to all the classes and the jobs and everything. And so they’re talking about this stuff through their doors. They’re talking about this information that we’re putting in through their doors and the newsletters and that type of thing. And so I know you were in there during the pandemic, and so what was like organizing for you like, during that time and during that period?
Adam Right, right. So for me, it had changed, because I had went from living around hundreds of people to living around 10 people, because I was relocated to the firehouse. And so me being, at the time a firefighter for CDCR, it was limited people there to talk to right? You know, coming home and paroling in this pandemic, and actually seeing that, uh, you know, that it was tough, right? And I know that when I got hired on this team, to be on the team that I had to really encourage and one of the best ways how I encourage IOs right now is just to share with them that it may seem that we’re not moving, or it may seem slow for you, but just stay moving forward, you know? Don’t give up because I know that feeling of wanting to give up. And so I just I just kind of use my experience, to kind of share with them that, you know, you everybody does have a time and we all working together and collectively, and that’s what’s important. And you know, when your time come, we’ll you be ready, you know? And so, you know, kind of challenging them to challenge themselves, like, you know, wow, to ask themselves that question, “When that time come, will I be ready?”And I feel so good to hear some of the IOs that have parolled, like when you mentioned CJ and, and others that have actually come home coming out of out of COVID, and now are continuing to do this work from words that we had shared with them about being encouraging and standing standing to this fight. And something that you mentioned about the about the abolition train, right? That we talked about, on the podcast, you know, some people get on and get off in different stops and some is it on train for a long ride. And so I tried to encourage them the best way to never give up, to just keep on pushing as much work, you know, be sure to take care, take care of yourself, make sure you get your rest however, you mentally take care of yourself. Workout, exercise, whatever a person do to to make sure they are taking care of themselves, I’ll make sure that I try to share with them to continue to do that.
Lee Yeah, those are like really big, like health things right there that you that you just dropped at the end of that and those are also opportunities. As you know, look, I met CJ, while we were working out, right? And so while you’re also taking care of yourself, you know, those are opportunities for folks to be in there and networking and advocating for the things that are important to them and things that are important to their community members, you know? I think it’s just like really important for our personal, mental health, or emotional health, or physical health, to continue to push to continue to making sure that we’re providing as much, you know, accurate, or all accurate information that we possibly can to the folks inside. And so they can continue to to be a part of this train, like you’re talking about, this abolition train of us moving forward and making sure that we’re doing best by our people in our community members.
Adam Right, right. And to add to that, and what really adds to that, I should say, is knowing that some of the assumptions that people make about incarcerated folks right? Then that I can share that it’s not true, is they don’t really care, or are they really involved? And it’s something that I would like to share with everyone that is listening- people inside really care about democracy, right? We care about the legislation process. We care about politics. They are in there speaking night and day about ways to make they environment better. I know several IOs that that works with other people that are incarcerated to bring things to advocate, right? And so when we look at the role of an Inside Organizer, and some of the things that people may assume that they don’t care, it’s actually opposite, right? They really, really care. They really, really passionate, some IOs actually go above and beyond right? And I was one of those IOs. I was one of those IOs where if I needed to run across the yard before day room, because I gotta get on the phone and talk to somebody, well listen, this is where my civic engagement skills is going to come into play, right? Because I’m gonna make sure I speak to whoever personnel I need to speak to, to get the clearance so we can do things decent and in order and that’s something that that, that when we look at, you know, our curriculum that we provide for our IOs, they don’t just teach teaches them, you know, okay, this is the subject, no. It we’re sure that we’re teaching them and as well as guiding them on how this is more than just being a part of it, right? It’s actually a way of living, you know? And so that’s something that I love about our Inside Organizers. I had an Inside Organizer call me yesterday, and he was like, “Hey, I’ve been trying to get in contact with you. You know, I’m happy I was able to finally call you because I moved here this and this, is there anything you need me to do?” I say “Yes, I would like you to get in contact with your CRM, which is a Community Resource Manager and try to set up a workshop.” And me calling giving him that little call to action, he felt so empowered because he was like, “Oh, I can do that?” Like, he thought he had to go to somebody else. I said, “No” I say “You write directly to them.” And so that goes back to what I’m saying is like, yeah, we are helping, you know, and providing the training, but more importantly, it’s something that that they that they want to do, and they want to be involved in and I can just tell that made his day. I can tell that he just felt so like, you know, I am here I work with IJ, I do matter. The work that I that I am doing as an Inside Organizer, it does matter, you know, what I’m saying? And so, yeah, anybody that’s listening, just know that Inside Organizers, they are inside, they are pushing forward just as hard as we are pushing for them out here.
Lee Yeah, and I mean, just given them the agency like that they have the power to make a difference in their lives and in their family members, their peers, their communities lives in, you know, and those workshops are really important for us to be able to get in there. Also is because we go in there with the team is many of the folks that are on the team that can that can make it and and just having that face to face personal contact with people and being able to look them in the eyes, and tell them that they matter and being able to look them in the eyes and talk to him about intersectionality person-centered language, the legislative process, making sure that we all are in lockstep, and we all understand the process there is is very valuable. And you know, it’s it definitely is time consuming. And it’s cost consuming. And so when we when we talk about like all the other different things that we provide, that is another opportunity for us to be able to go in there. And to be able to have those one on one engagements, you talk about the curriculum, you know, we also have, you know, the senior inside organizing training, where after they’ve gone through the curriculum, and then they want to level up and become like more involved, we want them to be able to have the mic, as much as possible to be able to talk to legislators and to be able to talk to, to people that matter. And so we connect them with outside organizing volunteers that have additional training about public speaking about being able to not only take what they’ve learned through the curriculum, but to be able to verbalize, to be able to articulate it, and to be able to be clear, concise, and onpoint. And so, you know, in addition to that, we have the opportunity to create, you know, legislators, legislators, I put that and finger quotes inside where we call them mentors, they become the teachers, they become the facilitators, they start to have the space and clear rooms, for people to be able to learn this, this legislative process and the curriculum and to be able to teach people inside. And so they are then looked at as the folks that have the vital information that everybody else is so thirsty for that people like really want, they really want to be a part of their community, because oftentimes, we found that when they were younger, and when they were, you know, messing up or not going against social norms, they didn’t feel connected to their community. And so they ended up getting in trouble and ending up incarcerated, and now we’re reconnecting them with their community and giving them that voice. And so do you have any last thoughts before we, before we wrap this up?
Adam Yeah, I just want to just really just point something out, because, you know, it really just hit me and I and I feel like, you know, when we look at the different levels of becoming an IO, it really just kind of just sit it just sat in on me because you do have an IO that goes through that, that curriculum, like you just explained, they becomes a Senior Inside Organizer and a mentor. And I just really thought about the workload, of being an IO, but then becoming a senior IO, right? Because as a senior IO, you have to you know, you have to go through this training, which means that you have to make phone calls, which means sometimes you may have to make a sacrifice, either call your family or get this training, right. And then we look at mentors and you know, I just I just want to just descend so much love and gratitude and just share, you know, with with everyone that is listening, that, you know, we truly appreciate our aisles at every level, we attrition. We appreciate our members, we appreciate everyone that that that you know, works with works would initiate justice so that we can continue to create leaders so we can create inside organizers that that eventually will be home out here with us, you know, continuing his work.
Lee Yeah, thank you so much for always uplifting them. And I think it’s super important, you know, with the volunteers and the people that are inside because, you know, they don’t have to do this. You know, this is this is a passion of theirs. They get to do this. They get to make a difference in their community, they get to make a difference in people’s lives. So to wrap it up, as we mentioned earlier, me and Adam, we run the Inside Organizing Department with Initiate Justice. We currently have 326 Inside Organizers. We have 32 Senior Inside Organizers and 11 mentors that are doing the work in the prisons. They’re doing the work on the ground. Those are the people that are really advocating for our loved ones and inside, these folks are spread throughout the California prisons. I think there’s 35 California prisons now. They’re working tirelessly to help us not only abolish prisons, but to make our community safer. So if you if you’re out there listening and would like to directly support our Inside Organizing efforts ,directly support our community of incarcerated organizers, consider donating by visiting GiveButter.com/WeFightForUs This money is used to compensate our IOs with packages to send them curriculums, monthly updates and action items via mail, as well as allows us to bring our programming to them in prison with civic engagement workshops. Again, if you all want to help out with the Inside Organizing Department, you can go to GiveButter.com/WeFightForUs
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