Crystal 0:15
[intro music begins] Abolition is for Everybody is a podcast that tackles the sometimes difficult conversations around prison abolition. I’m Crystal.
Ra 0:22
I’m Ra.
Adam 0:23
And I’m Adam.
Ra 0:24
In this season of Abolition is for Everybody we talk about harm.
Adam 0:27
What creates it, what recycles it and how we could find our way to meaningful means of repair.
Ra 0:35
Just a reminder friends, in this episode, and every episode, we dive into very sensitive issues. This season is frameworked around violence. and though the title of this episode may give you some warning, remember that harm itself tends to create situations of alternate harms, there will probably be other painful topics brought up too. Take care of you. [intro music continue]
Incarcerated Member 0:58
Hey y’all, before we get started, we wanted to highlight something about prison safety. While we would have loved to have a currently-incarcerated individual join us in conversation, we didn’t feel comfortable asking our incarcerated members to describe the danger they’re put in every day on a monitored phone call. When you hear our guests in this episode describe their experiences, we encourage you to keep the hundreds of thousands of currently incarcerated folk in mind. That being said, my name is Fernando and I am an incarcerated individual. One of the biggest things that people don’t talk about is the PTSD and trauma that an incarcerated individual feels. From all the things you see inside here from all the experiences. You know, some people tend to become institutionalized, or others, they may feel like numb. And when that happens, when you get back out on the street, it’s just not the same. It takes a little while to get back into that rhythm. And to me, that’s a safety concern on its own. On top of the stabbings and other things that go on inside a prison institution, that’s a lot to process. Sometimes people don’t process until after they’re out on the streets and it creates mental problems as it can create mental problems in here. I myself been incarcerated veteran, it’s kind of double for me, you know, the things I’ve seen the things I’ve done in combat mixed with the environment, in here is kind of like a double edged sword. Sometimes you feel numb, sometimes you feel sad, sometimes you don’t know how to feel. And sometimes you have to deal with it on your own, you don’t know who to ask for help. So with that being said, I just want to thank everybody who’s listening and just to let everybody know that, you know, if you have loved ones in here, just think about them and think about what they’re going through. Sometimes if they’re a little quiet and don’t want to talk to you just kind of keep in mind what I discussed, that they might be processing things that they don’t know how to process. So that being said, thank you all and take care of you.
Adam 3:22
You know, prison is meant to be the solution to these harms, but it is often overlooked that prison themselves are rooted in harm and perpetuate more violence. We’ve had some amazing guests this season and today, we decided to bring back two of them. On this episode, we are joined by Graham and Adrianna, who you are heard from in episodes three, and four. So welcome back, y’all. Let’s get started. So prison experiences, we are all formerly incarcerated and so I know together we have a lot of different things that we have witnessed and experienced with being incarcerated. So I want to open up the floor and ask who would like to share or to get us started on, you know, our prison experiences, and how prisons perpetuate violence.
Adrianna 4:14
I guess I can hop in and go um, so hey, everyone, my name is Adrianna Griffith and y’all heard me on episode three this season where I talked about how abolition serve survivors. So I talked a lot about just what it means to be a survivor and how community based organizations can come and you know, support folks and things like that. Something I didn’t talk about in the episode was my own experience with incarceration, being an incarcerated survivor, and things of that nature. So I think, for me, just to start, my whole experience is you know, as well as everybody else that that sort of gets trapped in this, you know, the prison industrial complex, you know, started, you know, obviously with an arrest, and then I was in county jail for a couple of years. So I sat in county jail for about two years fighting my case and within that time, there was a lot of things that I kind of expected that that jail would look like from, you know, movies, TV, that type of thing, even, you know, family members that have told me about their experiences, but they were all men. And so I had this expectation that jail was going to look a certain type of way, like I thought it was gonna be super programmy, a lot of politics and when I was incarcerated, I realized eventually, that wasn’t the case. On the women’s side of things, it was very much drama filled, I guess you could say, but the way that women sort of operate in a women’s facility, whether it’s county jail or prison, it’s a lot of relationships so it’s very relational. And then a lot of the issues that do come up are stemmed from those relationships. And it’s, it’s more so, you know, you disrespected me or you disrespected me on the streets, or you disrespected my dude or something like that. It’s not really as political and structured as it is on the on the, on the men’s side of things. And so that was something that I quickly, like, just learned, and was really kind of, like, learned along the way. It was really interesting you know, because again, like, I’m coming in there with this mentality, like, oh, it’s gonna be like, a bunch of dudes or whatever. And I was like, no, no, no, that’s that’s quickly wasn’t the case. But yeah, lots of relationships, very relational. Like the whole, the one thing that I can sum up about my experience, as somebody who was incarcerated, was relational. Everything was based on relationships.
Adam 6:47
I definitely understand and know what you say, know what you mean, when you say, everything is like centered around relationship, right? And how you build different bonds with people and how sometimes these bonds can, you know, kind of like for you can have a fall out, and then it can escalate and there’s so much other relationships that’s taking place outside of you know, you haven’t or making acquaintances with certain people and certain friends inside. And so thank you for sharing that. Graham, would you like to share you know about, you know, your experience, you know, first coming in to prison and certain things that you that you have witnessed that it may have been like mind blowing, you know, centered around, you know, how prison actually perpetuates violence?
Graham 7:28
For sure, so my name is Graham, my pronouns are he/him/his. And so I was thinking on what Adrianna said about the difference between women’s prison and men’s prisons and I was thinking of some connecting points. So like, men, the men’s prison experience is like super relational as well, but I remember when I was in county jail, and I’d been in county jail many times before that, and prior to that juvenile hall, and like group homes and stuff, I remember, like the prep, the community prep that goes into someone going up for their first term, and some of the things that I was told, was stuff like, and they were telling this to everybody going up on their first term, they’d say stuff like, okay, so you don’t want to owe anybody anything, you never want to have to depend on anybody so have your own money. Make sure not to spend that money on other people, or else they’re going to, like rely on that. And they’re going to expect that like, so if you go to a store, you can buy an ice cream for someone, but don’t be that guy who buys a case of soups for the homeboy every month, right? And some of those didn’t turn out to be true, exactly, but I went into prison with that experience. Like you always keep your head high, you have a certain posture, and like, like you’re geared for this. So like the expectation for me was that it was going to be like juvenile hall that is going to be like in juvenile hall there’s a lot of kids modeling manhood, right? Like kids, young men, I was 12 the first time I went to juvenile hall, and they were modeling manhood in a very specific way.
Adam 8:44
Right.
Graham 8:44
So there was a lot of fighting a lot of calling people out of your names and seeing what their reaction would be and I expected prison to be that way. And what it was was much more structured. Like, it felt like you fit into a role the second you get there, when you get off the bus or when you when you land at the, like Wasco for me on the bus. The first experience is with the guards and that experience is who do you run with? And that’s meant to say race, like not your gang, not anything like that. They want to know what race so if, like, what I think about is like, what someone who doesn’t have a background where they identify racially like with what they are like they’re not, they go to prison they’re like, oh, I’m just from Long Beach. I’m from Huntington, whatever. No, like, if you’re white, and you get off that bus, you are gonna say you are white, and they are going to house you with white people. So you’re automatically like taught racism immediately. And the second you get to your cell, there’s a series of things that take place. The white reps, for me, it was white reps, like they’re gonna come they’re gonna check your paperwork, they’re gonna make sure that everything’s okay. And you know that if something doesn’t check out on that paperwork, there will be violence, but the guards reinforced that shit is I guess my main point, like, my experience within the first week of prison was that everything that we were modeling, the guards had designed for their benefit, right? So the paperwork check guards will let people know if there’s faulty paperwork, the way that your housed, the areas that you’re designated, guards reinforce it, this is the white area, this is the Black area, this is Southern Hispanic area, this is Northern Hispanic area, they reinforce that and they actually police that shit. All of the rules that take place in prison like, for for white boys, it was there’s no cell extracting, there’s no hunger strikes, unless it’s everybody, don’t confront a guard unless it’s gonna go all the way to the hit like those rules are to the benefit of the guards. So when people hear prison, they’re like, oh, that’s a violent place where violent people go, that’s not necessarily the truth. It’s a place where people have experienced harm and have harmed go. And then the prison system reinforces the violent, that’s the violence that we model. If you put any 50, 100, 200, 2000 people in an enclosed environment, there will be conflict. It’s going to take place because humans engage in conflict. But when you put traumatized people in that environment, and reinforce it with systemic rules that enforced violence, like what you get is what we have.
Graham 8:44
Yeah, thank you for sharing that and it was a couple of questions that came to mind. First, I do want to do want to highlight something that Adrianna said that had slipped my mind, but it came back, was when when you said formerly incarcerated survivor. Like, I’m getting chills just thinking about that, because I never thought to frame it that way and then as you start to tell your story and share about your experience, you know, going into a women’s facility. And that brings up my next question is, so are some of the politics very similar to what to what Graham was speaking about with checking paperwork
Graham 11:36
Yup.
Adam 11:36
and you know, these unwritten laws and rules of things that you do and don’t do coming into prison as some would consider a rookie, right? In jail terms it’s like, oh, what was the term? I think we used to say, fresh fish? I think that was like, that was a prison term that was used right? Fresh fish. And these is things that you have learned. So I was I’m wondering, was that some of the same things that took place inside of a women’s facility?
Adam 12:01
Yeah, that’s a really great question. So and as Graham was talking, like, I was thinking about, you know, my prep work, and it’s very, very similar, right, the prep work to get into prison, you got people telling you what to do, what not to do things like that. My advice that I was given was, like, don’t have a girlfriend, don’t do drugs, don’t do don’t owe anybody money. Those types of things. So similar, I think prep work, and especially for somebody going in. But as somebody that experienced harm, and then being incarcerated as a direct result, going into prison for the first time, I was never asked, like, let me see your paperwork.
Adam 12:38
Okay.
Adrianna 12:38
So there was never any, like, check in like, I didn’t have to check in with anybody. Actually, like, a lot of what I heard in county jail, as part of the prep work was like, don’t talk about your case.
Adam 12:51
Right.
Adrianna 12:51
Don’t talk about it with anybody, don’t say
Adam 12:53
Period.
Adrianna 12:54
in here, like, just don’t even talk about it. So it wasn’t something that was talked about.
Adam 12:59
Okay.
Adrianna 13:00
Obviously, like, you know, if your case is on the news, or something like that, and folks see about or they know your
Adam 13:05
High profile.
Adrianna 13:06
or whatnot. Yeah, like folks are gonna know. And you might get asked like, but I, for me, nobody ever asked, like, why I was in there, even when you first get off the bus. Like, I remember getting off the bus. And yeah, your first interaction is with the guards and they’re doing the intakes. And I, I remember, you know, ask being asked, like, am I affiliated with any gangs or anything like that? And I remember being confused as to how I should answer because I wasn’t sure. I wasn’t sure if I was affiliated. If I was valid, like, nobody ever told me and my co defendant, who was my boyfriend at the time, he was a gang member, he was validated. And so but nobody ever sat me down and explained like, okay, because he’s your dude or whatever, like, now you’re associated, or now you’re validated based on the strength of him or whatnot. So nobody ever told me what to say. And that. In that encounter, well, it just kind of like I don’t know, I think? I don’t know. You know, but you’re still not placed based on or you’re not housed, I should say, based on like, your affiliation or whatever. I was in my first cell that I was in, and I went to Chowchilla for my receiving on A-yard. So that’s where a lot of folks go now is Chowchilla for the women or for folks that identify as women they’ll go to Chowchilla and, again, I was in an eight man cell and I was in there with folks from the North. I was in there from with Southsiders so it’s a mixture of- people who didn’t bang like it’s a mixture. And so they really just like throw women together and they don’t really separate us based on like race or, you know, where we’re from or anything like that. And again, I think that speaks to the point of like with us, it becomes like this very familial type of situation like everybody is either a mom or the sister or the brother or the uncle or grandpa, or the auntie. It’s very, very familial. And so quickly, my, my role became like, I was somebody’s sister, and sometimes I was somebody’s brother, depending on the day and how I did my hair. And so a lot of that is also like, based on you know, and it’s something that we do as, like, um, something that we do as incarcerated people, it’s just something that automatically takes place, and you build a bond and you established and it’s also like, how somebody is looking out for you. So like, depending on how old they are, and things like that, and the role that they’re playing. If they’re acting like your mother, then you’re gonna call them, they’re your mom. But if they’re more like identity, and nobody really identifies as like, boy, girl, man, woman, it’s just like, how they present. And so if you’re presenting as the guy, and you’re like that paternal figure, whatever, then you’re going to be somebody’s dad or grandpa depending on the age. And so, yeah, it’s super, it’s very, very different. And that was also something that struck me as, like eye opening, because, again, I’m expecting to be housed with nothing with black people, like have this super rigid structure. Like, if there’s something there’s a problem, like, it has to go through a chain of command, and that wasn’t the case. And so it was very surprising to me and, like, more comforting because I was like, oh, okay, I don’t gotta deal with all the craziness that I hear about in men’s facilities, but there still is harm that happens. And there still is conflict, conflict does happen. And it does, you know, the prisons, and the guards sort of help perpetuate some of this stuff right? They they instigate, you know, they talk, they talk shit, they tell each they tell everybody who’s talking shit and who the problem is, and, and things like that. So they’re also playing a role in the harm that’s, that’s going on. And even they might be harming people themselves in various various ways. I think, you know, women facility, it looks a lot different than, like, there’s not physical assaults from from guards as much, I don’t think, but there are, like sexual harms that go on whether that indirect or like directly harming somebody or doing something that they’re just not supposed to be doing. And so just based on the power, the power imbalance, it’s harmful.
Adam 17:30
Wow, you know, that topic, right? There can be a whole nother subject, right? When we talk about sexual violence in prison. I’m just interested to know how it was, you know, some of the first years after the introduction of, you know, learning that this is going to be where we’re going to be living like, what were some of the situations that you have seen that you will have seen, where violence was perpetuated from the prison and the guards?
Graham 17:54
So in reference to that question, and I’m like I was thinking about something Adrianna said, in terms of sexual harm, so I remembered because, like I said, I was in the juvenile system, and in county jail plenty of times how normalized having my body touched or strip searched was. Like how normalized showering packed into a shower with like, like sardine cans with 20 people in a five head shower, legit, that’s no exaggeration. 20 people in a five head shower, because that’s just you’re allotted 10 minutes after yard to shower and you have everybody coming in from yards so this is what you get. I remember just how normal that felt using the restroom in front of other people, and using like a sheet to divide you, between yourself or the day room restroom, or the yard restroom, where you’re just exposed to the world for security purposes, right? Just how normalized it was to view ourselves as less than human like a lot of the stuff that we did inside in retrospect, because I wasn’t thinking this at the time. But in retrospect, I realized that like a lot of the stuff that we did was because of that survival instinct, A, B, you’re dealing with an entire community, I’ve never seen more traumatized people in a collective space than you see in prison, and I think that that goes across the board and in prison, you’ve got people who have been, you know, raped, who’ve been sexually assaulted, who’ve been physically assaulted, who grew up in abusive households, who were ignored, neglected, and they react to that trauma response, end up with a sentence based on an action that they’ve chosen. Go to prison and are immediately told you are not a name unless you’re your last name. You are a number. You will sit closely like you’ll have a bed that is set- they had triple stacks when I went into prison. Those are like coffins. They called them the coffins. You remember the triple stacks?
Adam 19:28
Yeah, I remember those.
Graham 19:30
Just the continual reinforcement, either formal and informal. When they’re calling you for medical they’ll call your bed number and your CDC number and let you know go to medical, go to education, go to program, doesn’t like you are not a person, you are not yourself. And the way that that the way that that builds out, is you know, like, I don’t remember being called by my first name until the last two years of my incarceration. I went by Casper continually. I didn’t have myself. This was the identity that I chose in prison. Right? And I I felt, I remember jobs that I worked, where they would be like, well, you know, 0.0 cent pay number or eight cent pay number and they’ve got you working overtime for No, there’s no overtime, but you’re working overtime, giving you a sack lunch at the end, taking all the food that you gather, like you’re legit in survival mode continually for the entirety of your prison experience. And coming out of that, like, you know, the the impact that it has on life today. I mean, it’s detrimental in many different areas, I never don’t finish a plate of food. I never don’t finish a plate of food because of that, because of that mentality that like you’re going to eat what you got, whether it’s a hot dog, and some beans and an apple on the corner of the tray, you’re going to eat what you’ve not, because you might not have food in the cell, you might not have dinner might be late, you don’t know you don’t know what’s going to happen. So I think that that survival mode is I mean, it shows itself in different ways throughout your prison experience. But that is the direct result of the harm that prison causes when they take away your humanity, give you a number, put you in a coffin, essentially, your beds are coffins, and tell you, you’re gonna be here for the remainder. Everywhere you go, you’re gonna have a gun pointed at you, every time you’re at yard, we’re going to be watching holding our pepper spray cans waiting for something to happen, even though it’s less likely that something’s going to happen than that it isn’t. That’s the reality of prison life.
Adam 21:15
I’m so glad that you mentioned like, the food stuff, right? And just, you know, being given like an apple or whatever. I remember, you know, being in county jail and, and seeing like, pregnant women come in the county jail. And it was very, like, they arrest pregnant people? Like, that’s crazy. And you know, in various stages of pregnancy, you know, you got some who are like, in their first couple months, but you’ve got some women who are incarcerated, and they’re like, 7, 8, 9 months pregnant, and, you know, almost ready to give birth. And, you know, I, you know, I’ve had family members that have gone through pregnancy, and I remember, you know, them talking about their cravings, and, you know, they’re always like, hungry and snacking, and just, you know, you know, and it’s their body’s way of, you know, making sure that the baby gets gets that nourishment, right? And I remember in county jail, and it was like, they would call and it was after dinner, and then they would call like pregnancy snacks. And like the pregnant women would go up to, you know, the CO, and they’d get hand like a sack lunch, you know,
Adam 22:23
Oh wow.
Adrianna 22:23
like a baloney sandwich and an orange, eanut butter jelly.
Adam 22:27
One mustard pack.
Adrianna 22:28
Yeah, and a mustard pack. Exactly. And I was just like, that’s, that’s, that’s what they get a sandwich? Like, they’re pregnant. And it was just, it was one of the first, you know, again, it was one of the first harms that I had recognized, like, state, the county, like doing, you know, to folks, you know, because I feel like the food sometimes gets lost in translation. And you know, we don’t talk enough about that. And in prison, we always say, like, oh, wait till you get to prison, like the food’s so much better. Right? And it is, right? and I’m not going to sit here and lie and say that it’s not because it very much is, it’s a better quality, it’s still trash, but it’s better quality, and you get more of it. But in county jail, I just remember like, the food coming in, like these plastic, these hard plastic TV dinner tray type things with the cellophane over it. And you know, like you said, Graham, it was like a hot dog and some beans, or like, there was this red stuff, nobody knew what it was, like, you felt like it was probably spaghetti, but it didn’t have a taste. And so, you know, you just like crush up like the little hard biscuit that they give you and in trying to eat all this food. And I just remember thinking like, you know, for folks that you know, don’t have the family support on the outside, right, they don’t have the luxury and the privilege of getting commissary every week, or every month. And this is what folks have to survive on. And so when you talk about being in survival mode, like when you’re hungry, right, you, you go through, whatever you have to do, just so you can not be hungry. And so I remember folks, you know, trading food or, you know, buying food from others, or you know, and it sometimes it puts you in a vulnerable state, right, because like you talked about earlier, it’s like, if you’re, you know, doing something all the time for somebody like then they become to expect it and things like that. And you can also feel sort of obligated and beholden to take care of your fellow your fellow human being because, you know, the state and the county isn’t doing so and so it just puts you in a in a super bind. And it’s sad to see and it’s sad to see and it’s definitely harmful, you know, because you know, we talked about there’s a lot of stuff going on in the media right now about you know, abortion rights and pro life and pro choice and all this but when we really talk about you know, pro life, you know, these these babies, you know, they didn’t do anything to be you know, arrested or anything they’re not even alive yet. And, you know, they’re already like being undernourished because some somebody said that was is the right thing to do.
Graham 25:01
That’s crazy. That’s, so did either of y’all work in the kitchen ever?
Adam 25:06
I did.
Adam 25:07
I did.
Adrianna 25:07
I was a laundry worker in County and then I was a kitchen worker in prison. Best kitchen worker I’m just gonna say that right now.
Graham 25:17
So the point that’s interesting. So I was a, I was a linebacker I worked on the line, I saw the amount of food that gets thrown away, I see what they do to the food too, plus I was a clerk. So I would fill out the order sheets and work with the food manager at the prison I was at. And so this is an interesting point, so they are working on a budget, they have a very extended budget that every food manager, this is systemic harm. If nothing else, it’s systemic harm, but it’s a lot of other things, including negligence, and just like lack of humanity. So you fill out the budget. And every food managers promotion is based on having a surplus at the end of the year, just like any corporation, right, so it’s capitalized. So that surplus is made by cutting foods. So what they did at the prison at multiple prisons where I worked in kitchens, was put water in the food product. So this is mush anyways, and it has no flavor, and they take all the seasonings out of it. It’s it’s not good. And they would legit put water into a third of the pans to extend the food. And then everything that’s left where does it go? Do y’all remember?
Adrianna 26:20
The Garbage.
Adam 26:22
Garbage.
Graham 26:23
They do not let you take extra.
Adrianna 26:25
I was a dockworker and there were some nights where I’m just like, why are we throwing this all away? Like couldn’t give it to like, to the rest of the folks on the yard that are hungry? Or like if you don’t want to give it to us give it to the homeless folks on the street. And it’s always like, well, we can’t do that liability. And I’m like, make them sign a waiver. Like they they’re hungry like.
Graham 26:48
And legit there’s no liability, there isn’t a liability, it is all for budget. So they can say that there was a surplus of food. Next month, we can order less of product A, product B, they give the line workers if y’all remember this, and if I’m wrong on this in your different prison experiences, please tell me, but they give them a certain amount on certain nights that they can take out and that is an economy and said I remember working in the kitchen and sneaking like chicken or hamburger patties out, and you’d sell like five for $1 or four for $1. And so people are getting soups, so people are coming off from the case of soups, which already is an inflated price. We can talk canteen later, and buying these this faulty state product because there’s only extra because the food manager cut it off so we could get a promotion at the end of the year.
Adam 27:30
Yeah, it really is really is and even kind of taking it a little a little further and how, you know, how they perpetuate violence and and knowing that survival mode is key is seeing how sometimes when I where I was at in the kitchen, sometimes like the clerk we get like all the extras.
Adrianna 27:49
Yes!
Adam 27:50
And that was so like that was so hurt hurt hurting because it was like, you know, as a person, like myself that was inside I was I was pretty fortunate, but I will try to share with people and try to get them to to understand that, you know, certain things that’s happening is by design so let’s not continue to feed into that, right? Let’s not continue to feed into how is constantly perpetuated through these little indirect things of just simply hey, you know, I’m gonna give the clerk a full bag of chicken and this, this collector has a full bag of chicken is going to go back and share that same chicken with you know, most likely his his circle, rather than kind of splitting between the kitchen. And that’s just that’s just like a little, little small sign of the division that they continue to cost and how they how they add to it. I’m just interested to know was that was there any other things that may have been happening where you have actually witnessed? You know, a state and capital, you know, prison violence in different levels? Right. While, while being inside?
Adam 28:57
Yeah, I want to go back to how the state continues to perpetuate sexual violence within prison, right? And, and so, again, you know, I worked in the kitchen, the majority of my time when I was in prison and there were there were many times where we were like, the some of the guards would like, you know, allow us to leave with some extra food or whatnot. But then there were some times when a guard would have a bad day, they would be pissy for whatever reason, and they would bring that baggage to work with them and then they would take it out on us and so I remember there was there were many times where we would be completely stripped searched out, you know, as we’re leaving the kitchen, and you know, just to make sure like, we don’t have a fucking cucumber, you know, in our pants or some or something like that. And so, like being sexually assaulted over chicken and cucumbers, like if that happened out here on the streets, it would be insane. Like if there was a new a breaking news story that at a Walmart employee, strip searched, you know, a customer or somebody they thought was stealing chicken or cucumbers, it would be hysteria. There would be like, calls to shut Walmart down, like hold them accountable, like, all these types of things, but because we’re incarcerated somehow means like, we’re deserving of that treatment? Right? Somehow we’re deserving of the sexual harm if somebody’s, you know, touching our bodies, you know, and searching our bodies without our consent, you know, based on, you know, somebody may or may not have something that they’re not supposed to, you know, and I say that in air quotes, because, like, why are we not allowed to have food? You know?
Graham 30:41
I mean, the reality is, is that they put us on a 2000, 1800 to 2000 calorie diet, right? That diet is designed, like if you look at facts at scientific facts, that biological facts our bodies designed for a body in stasis, meaning a non-moving diet is a 2000 calorie diet. But then they have you working eight hours attending school, if you have to attend school, you go to yard, you do all of these physical things you work out. I can say this, when I got out of the SHU, I was in the SHU for eight years. When I got out of the SHU, I weighed 172 pounds. To compare that with what I am today at a healthy weight, I’m 208 right now and that’s a healthy weight. When I paroled in this is after a lot, I worked in laundry, so I had a little hustle, I was able to get some clothes and get new boxers for folks and I brought some food in. That was I mean, I paroled at 203. So I wasn’t even healthy then. And you know, now I’m 208 because I’m eating free people food and free people food is vastly better. So, I mean, logically, how can you put a whole bunch of food that folks know while they’re working these eight cent an hour pay numbers, meaning they get paid eight cents an hour for their eight hours of work, that they’re going to lose 55% of for restitution that never goes to the survivors of harm, right? And then they see food going out on the back dock in the dumpster? Like of course they’re going to take food of course, of course, you’re going to take food. This shit is extra anyways, I’m not taking out anyone’s mouth, I’m taking out of the dumpster, essentially.
Adrianna 32:08
That’s crazy.
Adam 32:09
And
Adam 32:10
You bring up like, I’m glad you mentioned like the calorie intake, right, because this 2000 a day, you know, calorie intake up, I don’t know where they’re counting these calories because it didn’t feel like 2000 calories, right? But even like you said, you’re you’re working and then at CIW, where I was California Institution for Women, we also house like the PFT. So like the pre-fire camp training program. And so, um, I wanted to be in fire camp, they told me I couldn’t because I had a violent offense, so that was fine, but I got to work out with all the the PFT girls, right? And so I loved that, I loved going in there, but it was an high intense workout, like these folks are training to literally be firefighters like in the wilderness. So I’m, you know, you’re training with them and you’re doing these high impact trainings, like burning calories, like a lot of it is cardio and so you go to breakfast and you know, by noon, you burned all that you burned all that off, right? And so like you, they give you 2000 calories a day, you burn off, like 1000 plus, and so what you’re left with, what 900 calories to survive on, like, that’s crazy. That’s absolutely insane. And like you said, it’s meant for, you know, somebody in stasis, and you know, when we’re talking about, like being under nutrition and, you know, things like that not having enough nutrients, you know, that goes into like the health care, right? And that in the health care that we that they have, or that they claim that we have, you know, when we’re incarcerated, and it’s trash, right, because, you know, they’re not doing regular checkups, you know, like you do on the street, you go see your primary care, you know, every so often and do the checkup and make sure everything is good, you do your blood work, you do all that stuff. That’s not something that happens in prison. At least it wasn’t my experience. You know, I remember trying to go for my annual like my female annual exam and they were like, oh, no, you don’t need that. You know, now mind you, I came into prison, having the experience of being sexually assaulted, sexually exploited, right? So just based on the exploitation, like, my lady parts probably needed a little more extra care and you know, from a doctor and whatnot, and so, like stuff like that, you know, the health care, it’s just they just don’t do it. And so like if somebody is malnourisd, for whatever reason, and they’re feeling like that physically in their body, they’re not going to get their needs met. They don’t do bloodwork at all unless like you’re dying. Right? And even that is a stretch right? I remember at one point in this was I don’t know when it was but it was at a time when there was like a lot of lockdowns going on within the institution. We got locked down because you know, somebody lost keys to the visiting room. You know, visiting still occurred. That’s a whole nother conversation, right? But they lost the key. So we were locked down for like a week. And that’s the longest stretch of time that we had been locked down. And I know that’s a huge difference from like men’s facilities because they can be locked down for months. Right?
Adam 32:22
Right. Well a lockdown is a lockdown.
Adrianna 35:03
Yeah.
Adam 35:03
A lock down is a lockdown.
Adam 35:10
Our lockdown, it was like the longest we were in it was like six to seven days, right? So like peanuts compared to like a men’s experience with a lockdown. Right? But still like enough to, you know, be something and I remember like every all movement stopped because when you’re locked down, all movement ceases. You’re escorted everywhere. You’re kept in your cell. Luckily, I worked in the kitchen, but at this particular time, the Santa Anna’s were like going crazy out there. And so there was things flying off, trees are falling down. So again, they kept everybody locked down for safety reasons. And I remember like we had to move units because there was a danger that one of the trees would fall on the unit and so we moved units, med call and everything got really screwy. I didn’t get my meds that day. And I remember the next day at chow I went into like this semi catatonic state for you know, whatever reason the lack of control, like so much stuff was going on mentally and emotionally and then I just went into the semicatatonic state, but there was no follow up medical care after that. It was just like, oh, yeah, you were semicatatonic? No more program. Nobody explained to me what that meant. Nobody explained, like, why this happened like that like nothing. It was just like, oh, shoot, she snapped out of it. She’s good. And I remember like this guard being like, oh, she’s faking. She’s faking
Graham 36:52
Yeah, they say that shit all the time.
Adam 36:54
Yeah, and if I may, if I may define a couple of terms for the listeners that may not be aware, med call meaning that a person that has to take medicine at a certain time. So let’s say five o’clock come around, and you have to take medicine at five, there’s a med call med call, so you know, wherever you are at whether you are in the cell in the day room or whatever, you would have to report to the nurse’s station to be able to take your meds as well as chow time when they say chow time, chow time being, you know, it’s time to eat. So I just want to just kind of just share that with people that are listening, that may not be familiar with these terms, because we definitely want to be able to educate and you know, help people understand so they can, you know, follow us in this conversation. And just speaking about, like the healthcare and just like the different jobs and things like it was so crazy to see how, like how I was treated right at different facilities and then when I ended up becoming a firefighter, for the actual, you know, for the state of California, specifically for CDCR prison system, the difference in health care that they tried to give me because I had this title as a firefighter, but still the very, very limited access to things that I access to the proper medic medical care attention, you know, and so that, that was just ringing in my head when y’all was just sharing that because I remember seeing the social hierarchies of people being able to go to medical and what that mean is like seeing dudes that work in medical and be like, Oh, don’t trip, you know, I can talk to the I can talk to the doctor walk or I can talk to the nurse to try to get you in early and different things like that, like it’s so it was so so crazy to see how this system is created, and then it’s all these other other different systems that leads up to, you know, a very, very oppressive destructive type of way of living.
Graham 38:43
That’s interesting, if you think about the path that it takes to get to medical to speak to what you’re talking about, about getting in early. That’s because you fill out the medical form and you have to fill out, write your need, that cost you, back then it cost $5 and they pull $5 off your book, so if you didn’t have $5, you can still go I think, but it took longer. And so you put the medical form in, and then it was anywhere from a week to three weeks and you’re gonna go into medical. So, the reason people didn’t go to medical was because the wait in medical, the wait for medical, oftentimes, if it was a lower like a lower issue, it would go away, or you think it would go away and something else could be happening biologically, but you’d be like, screw this I’m not going and then also when you go in, you’re like we were kept in a cage. Did they do that? Where y’all were at? Like you stay in a little cage and you’re like shoulder to shoulder with everybody else who scheduled for that day.
Adam 39:35
Yeah
Graham 39:35
Now your schedule your appointment, maybe we want maybe one o’clock, maybe two o’clock, maybe three o’clock, but you’re in there at 7:30 in the morning and you’re just sitting in the cage waiting. So you’re sitting shoulder to shoulder with everybody else who’s sick. There ain’t no social distancing happening there. And uh then you see them and they’re immediately speculative as to whether you’re being honest or not like they’re mad at, imagine if you go to the doctor out here and the doctors like nah, this person Is lying like that ain’t real they’re full of shit. Like, what if that was your experience in medical out here, that is not the case, but that’s the experience, every single person that goes to medical inside, you’re immediately they are speculating whether you’re being honest or not, and what you’re trying to get out of it. And so that you may be trying to get, you know, you may have severe pain, I saw dudes who are passing kidney stones shaking on the yard, they had nothing that they could do for them, nothing they could do take some aspirin, that affects the kidney stones more. So here’s some ibuprofen and some water. This is what you get to deal with this severe back pain, kidney stones, all sorts of disastrous medical conditions. One of the facts that stuck in my mind, because I was out during COVID. But, folks were enduring COVID, obviously, and one of the facts that came out, this is from the state from CDCR, is that people in prison 50% of the population has two or more pre-existing medical conditions that make them susceptible to COVID. And yet, they did not do medical releases to the degree that they should have, they didn’t care. Two or more conditions that make them susceptible. That means lung conditions, that means you know, their age, they have lung conditions, they have respiratory issues, they’re on breathing machines, etc, etc. And they didn’t care. They knew this, this is the fact CDCR knew they released the fact sheet that told us this information, and I think of what it would be like to be inside during COVID knowing exactly how dismal the healthcare system is. Yeah, that just came out.
Adam 41:24
That’s crazy. I believe it. But that’s, that’s, it’s so disheartening to hear, you know, when when this the state has taken the obligation and said, We’re going to be in charge of these people’s lives. And, you know, it’s our job and responsibility to make sure these people stay alive or whatnot. And, you know, they just dropped the ball every single time on purpose, you know, and it’s just, it’s so sad. And, you know, people don’t deserve that, you know, people deserve adequate health care, people deserve adequate food, you know, we just deserving of that, you know, no matter what someone has done, you know, they’re at least deserving of human dignity.
Adam 42:08
Yeah, to be treated fair, and not to be, you know, to be set up right to be constantly influenced, based on you know, your living conditions and what you are seeing and how, you know, how things are presented, I mean, some of the, some of the most, the most, like dramatic things, I went well, I guess it was dramatic for me, because of how I was feeling at the time, but I remember, you know, you getting ready for yard, and then they say it’s no yard, right. And then now all of a sudden is no yard and it was all brighten the day rooms and then the lights get turned off, you know, and as as as a feeling as a mood, you know, the lights come off. And then next thing, you know, you know, you feeling kind of agitated, and, you know, your celly might say something- celly meaning, being short for the word you know, cellmate and and you know, that can add to tension and different things like I’m been in so many situations and seeing that where it was just like, wow, you know, in any kind of a kind of just is very, very depressing. And so, you know, we did cover a lot today, we did speak about a lot from personal things that we have witnessed to experience and from shared stories, right/ And so something I want I would like to ask and please take a second to answer is like, what did we miss in this episode would you say?
Graham 43:21
I had a few things that I think I can put on the table. So the entire experience of prison is dehumanizing. We can universally agree on that. The second you are sentenced, which county jail is a different story altogether, the entire county jail experience is designed to make you sign for, for whatever they offer you so you can get the hell out of county jail, whether that means release or whether you’re off to prison because it’s terrible. Then you get on a bus, they immediately take your name, they immediately give you a number. You’re shipped off like a sardine can up to the prison, you get to the prison, they have a gun pointed at you, you’re oftentimes shipped as far away from your community and your family as possible and have a gun pointed at you everywhere you gun or pepper spray everywhere you go. You’re put in a cell that’s oftentimes smaller than most people’s bathrooms. My bathroom right now is bigger than six by nine that in- my apartment right now. And that’s where everybody lives. They’re in except on 180 yards, which is a little bit bigger. It’s like six by 12 instead of six by nine. Like that is what you will live in until potentially if you’re fighting a life sentence or if you’re dealing with a life sentence till, you’re saying till the end, there is no light at the end of the tunnel. So prison steals hope. Prison takes your humanity. They starve you. You are medically deprived. You’re in terms of mental health, like I remember I signed up for mental health during my last 18 months, I decided that I was going to start challenging some of the trauma that I was living into- some of my trauma responses and they said okay, I went in for my initial consultation. They met with me, they talked through all the key points that they needed to and they said we’ll see you in 90 days. I mean, if I was suicidal, if you know I was self harming what would 90 days do? What would knowing that my appointment was in 90 days do for me? And if I put in a medical slip, they’ll call me in in three or four weeks, if it’s an emergency, or perhaps put me in a padded suit, in a padded room, if the situation is really severe,
Adam 45:13
And continue to isolate you huh?
Graham 45:15
Yeah, so prison feels hopeless. And when you put people who have experienced trauma into an environment that feels hopeless, people model trauma responses. That’s what that’s what human beings do, not just people who are incarcerated, not people who committed acts of harm- all humans model trauma responses in hopeless situations and I think it’s super important to highlight the fact that prison exacerbates this, it’s designed systemically, the individual guard may be a little more human, but the system and the rules that they are trained on, is designed to belittle, degrade and dehumanize every single person in there, regardless of their status, their case, regardless of whether they’re guilty or not guilty, which is another story altogether. So that’s something that I would say, if we’re going to ask, what did we miss, I think it’s important to highlight those points,
Adrianna 46:02
I think, for me, taking it back to the experience of a survivor of sexual violence that finds herself or themselves incarcerated in the prison syste there was one in particular experience. I was in my cell, and it was after the ten o’clock hour, so after, you know, nine o’clock, the doors don’t open again, like the cell doors won’t open again, unless it’s an emergency for folks that are listening. And so it was 10 o’clock, you know, I was in my bed, and I heard the door pop, I heard one of the doors popped into my hallway. And I’m like, I didn’t hear an alarm. And I didn’t hear any like, you know, hustle and bustle, like there was some type of an emergency, but then I heard the shower door open, because there’s a shower at the end of our hallway and it was a rather short hallway, and I heard it open. And then next thing I know, I hear shenanigans going on. So I hear what I really believe was a sexual encounter between a guard, the night guard, and one of the girls in the unit. Now, I, you know, obviously, you know, these are adults, right, and maybe there was some consenting going on, but within the realm of prison, when you’re incarcerated, when you are the person that’s incarcerated, you are unable to legally give consent because of the power imbalance between a correctional officer and then the incarcerated person. And so, I remember speaking out about this to one of the COs that I like, trusted and had a lot of rapport with, and I remember talking about it, and instead of an investigation of, you know, coming out of that, it turned into an inside, it turned into a joke. It turned into a joke. And so, it, you know, and at the time, you know, I played into the little inside joke, you know, and I played, you know, I played the role, but looking back on that it was like that should have turned into an investigation should have been something that was sent to the PREA sergeant. And so for folks that are listening, PREA stands for the Prison Rape Elimination Act and it’s a federal thing that says that people that are incarcerated under you know, supervision, either county level or state level, have to be protected from sexual harm and sexual violence, whether it’s from guards, or whether it’s from another incarcerated person. And that didn’t happen. And so this guard was able to sort of just sexually exploit, you know, this, this girl, this woman, and probably many others. And in those transactions, you know, folks don’t get anything out of those transactions, they get a pen, they get a phone, something that’s not really a value. And, and folks is, you know, choices are taken away. And so I think if we missed anything, it was, again, just uplifting that experience of somebody that’s experienced sexual harm and imagine what that does, like, you’re not going to speak out if it happens to you because it’s just going to turn into a joke, so I’m going to be silent. And that continues to what continues to keep survivors both incarcerated and on the streets silent is because we don’t take these things seriously.
Adam 49:09
Wow. At this point, I don’t even feel like I need to follow up with what did we miss because I feel like you’ve covered every single thing like direct, even with, you know, sharing experiences and things that have happened. So to to leave, and to share just a little bit of hope. You know, what, what could what could you know, we offer as a little bit of hope, and something that I do, I do want to just just kind of just share is that, you know, yes, we do have our family we do have our friends and loved ones that are in prison and we know how the system is is is affecting them based on what was heard today, as well as things you all have may have heard personally, but to go for it with a little bit of hope to continue working and taking the steps as necessary, right? And I just really want to encourage our listeners that there are people that are doing the work and you can join the fight to do this work, such as work that Adrianna,do, you know, such as work that Graham do, which I will pass over to them for them to be able to explain a little bit more of their piece of hope and tied in with the work that they are doing as well to continue to give us all hope
Adrianna 49:31
I can, I can start. So my little piece of hope for those that tuned in to the earlier episode that I was on, so I work for a nonprofit, the Women’s Center Youth and Family Services and we are actually the rape crisis center for the County of San Joaquin in California. And so we do also have a PREA department, right? We have folks that provide these direct services to incarcerated people who find themselves victims of a sexual assault while they were either inside or on the outside. Because guess what? If you were a victim of sexual assault, and you find yourself incarcerated, and now you want to deal with that, you are allowed PREA services. And so the little bit of hope I have is that folks can get involved with these things. You know, there are horrible things that do happen, but we do have like a volunteer program where we take volunteers and things like that, and folks can volunteer with us to, you know, help provide these services to folks that are still incarcerated and that’s through, you know, direct one on one engagement at the facility, or if we can’t get into the facility, then that’s through, you know, letter writing and things like that, but just being there for somebody, in like their worst moment. In their hardest moment, it makes all the difference in the world. And it really, really, you know, it makes me feel good when I can be there for somebody at their worst moment, you know, whether or not we have similar experiences or not. And so I think just that little bit of hope I want to leave folks with is, is you can get involved with these things. You can volunteer for, you know, organizations that have programs that speak to these issues, and you can make a difference, right? It’s, it’s, it seems like a lot, and it seems like it’s such an impossible mountain to tackle, but we can all come together and we can all challenge the system and we can hold the system accountable for what it’s supposed to do. And that’s what I really enjoy about my job is I get to hold systems accountable for how they’re interacting with victims and survivors, whether they’re incarcerated or not.
Graham 52:17
Yeah, I can I can piggyback on something that Adrianna said that stuck out to me. So it does seem like an impossible mountain. And in terms of hope, like it seems less impossible than it did five years, maybe 10 years ago. It still is a big task and I don’t want anyone to forget that. I don’t forget that. But it seems less impossible. That’s because the conversation is taking place. The harms that we talked about today are harms that people are openly discussing, whereas five years ago, the belief was not well, you do the crime you do the time. And most people weren’t questioning, the people who are directly impacted were questioning, but our voices weren’t amplified. And today, we have so many platforms, and so many avenues and so many organizations working in the direction of amplifying those conversations, amplifying those voices, that I feel like I said prison is a hopeless environment, it feels hopeless. And I know that those IJ newsletters going in adds a little bit of hope. And the laws that get passed add a little bit of hope. And watching people come home adds a tremendous amount of hope. I remember sitting in there and there’d be you know, weeks on level four yards where you wouldn’t never see anybody go home and I don’t think that’s the case now. I go and deliver program, I work for Success Stories Program, which is we we as an organization, our mission is to work with men and work with people in general to discuss the root of harm and challenge beliefs that we have around why harm takes place so that we can so that we can begin having a healthier whole or more integrated life and I walk, I go into yards that I was on Centinela for four-yard, Calipatria C-yard and I was on those yards and they were very hopeless places. I remember being there feeling like I’m never going to leave this place and no everybody here is on the ship sinking with me. And that is not the case today. That is not the case. It doesn’t mean that there are people there aren’t people that feel hopeless, but it does mean that the voice of hope is amplified in that community and that’s something that hasn’t been able to take place. CDCR shuts that shit out. And I think it’s important that we continue that work because these can’t just be conversations. So to end on an action step, like they can’t just be conversations, or else the conversations will be muted in the future. They will be muted by the powers that be. So we need to turn these conversations into action. Continue pushing legislation, begin begin taking those bricks out of that wall tearing those fences down. We’ve got two prisons, one closed, one slated for closure at the end of June. Fingers crossed, Susanville, and you know, the goal is eight more by [outro music begins] 2025 and it’s a lofty goal and it feels achievable because of the work and the conversations taking place.
Crystal 54:53
It’s the end of Season 2! On this Season of Abolition is for Everybody, you’ve heard us have very personal and honest conversations with folks who’ve caused harm, experienced harm and more times than not- lived through both experiences. Thank you for being a part of these conversations with us! We can’t wait to share Season 3 with you in just a couple of months, until then, take care of you! [outro music continues]